INVISIBLE GURU FORUM

Hi Jed,

I know (well I guess not with one hundred percent absolute certitude) that you believe (or do you know?) that we don't have free will.  I've read your compelling arguments on the topic, as well as those of others I respect.  Obviously, the question of free will seems to  be one of the most important there could be, so I've put a lot of thought into it over the years.  Not that I've come to any conclusions or anything.

My question is, if we truly do not have free will, are we basically just conscious robots?  Apart from the fact that we're not completely made from metal (although we do have lots of it like iron in our bodies) is there really anything that fundamentally makes us other than a robot? 

We don't attribute consciousness or feelings to robots, but if everything we do is completely based on our genetics and environment, then it seems like that would be exactly what we are in a sense.  Like a flesh and blood robot running on some kind of software program.  Otherwise, I think there must be some semblance of free will. 

Thanks,
Dan

Completely stop thinking for a minute or two?  You might as well ask me to become the UFC heavyweight champion while you're at it.

I hear you, but what about a different concept of free will, more like free will power.  Taking into consideration whatever we are that is beyond thought, that can give in to those thoughts (of which we may have no control) or resist them.  Like our determination, perseverance, yearning etc. Maybe that is in our control.

Just to take a simple example- someone is lifting weights; he can either push himself or just stop when it gets a little painful.  So it's in their control whether to do 5 reps or 10 reps.  Now expanding that out, is it someone's free will as to how much effort they put into reaching 'H/A' or getting enlightened or transcending duality?  Like maybe the really important things that we can or cannot accomplish in life depend on our level of sincerity and commitment, and that's what matters. 

Maybe we can't decide our next thought, or control them in general, but aren't we more than just our thoughts?

Hi Jed,

Would you be able to provide any clarity on the meaning of the statement 'the thought of honey holds him to life?'  If not I understand.

Thanks,
Dan

I'm not sure, but it seems to mean that as long as you desire any of life's 'pleasures', you're pretty much damned.

I just don't know if I can reach that state of complete indifference, where I don't want anything that allows for a temporary reprieve or just helps me get through the day.

The state of ''indifference'' is not what it might sound like. Imagine this:

1.) You couldn't care less what arises.
2.) You know at a gut level that everything is within you.
3.) You are ''love'' and hence whatever arises is a reflection that love.
4.) Go back and read #1.

You don't ''get'' there, you already are there, but you are pretending to be a human in a body. Stop lying. Simple as heck, but hard as hell. Every thought you have ever had is a lie, a total and absolute fabrication. Nothing wrong with that, not evil or a sin, just the nature of thoughts. You can be aware of ''your'' thoughts, so obviously you aren't thoughts. That's a big relief. What else are you aware of.. and that is NOT you... not the real You?

I suggest you gently contemplate that.

Love ya, Jed.

P.S. Remember to breathe.

I understand your challenges with comprehending this, and that is how it should be.. for now.

Could you not care that you do care.... but there is a challenge here. Let's substitute two words, attachments and aversions, for the word care. What are they? Just thoughts. Thoughts that something is better than something else... but they go a little deeper. Attachments and aversions have a stickiness to them.

Let's say you decide to go to a certain restaurant for dinner, you make plans, find a friend to go with, get all dressed up... but when you arrive you find your favorite restaurant is closed for Estonian New Year. You didn't even know there was such a country... but you have enjoyed their food immensely. Now, there is nothing wrong with making plans, setting dates, blah, blah, but how are you going to react to this little glitch in the program? That is the indicator of how much attachment you had to your mental pictures and thoughts about dinner. Alright... I concede that's a rather silly example, so permit me to get more serious.

You meet someone you really like and after considerable investment in courting and false personality and relationship development you get married. You have, quite understandably, built up many stories and created numerous attachments/aversions and hold them as important to you. He/she should and will be this way and that way, will not do this and won't do that, blah, blah, blah... They will permeate your mind both consciously and subconsciously.

You have a great honeymoon, the families meet and get together surprisingly well... and they two years later, the object of your dreams tells you one of the following:

1.) I don't love you anymore, or
2.) I love your best friend, or
3.) I have been exploring myself and discovered I am gay, or
4.) Your feet stink and I am leaving you.

Will this really happen with that person you loved so much? Well.... I don't like gambling, I think it's a fools game, but I would be willing to put some money on this, or something very similar, happening eventually. $10 on the table (hardly a high roller, but I know my limitations).

Every human I have ever seen go through this sort of experience suffers... but not from what they think they are suffering from. The fact that someone left you will bother you to the degree that you cling to your attachments and aversions. I've had people say words to the effect that, ''I can never forgive so-and-so for what he/she did to me.''. To which I respond, ''Yeh, sounds nasty, how long ago was it?''. I get back something like, ''twenty-three years ago, two months, three days, and about 45 minutes.... and waiter, give me another drink.'' To which I respond something like, ''Yeh, I'd carry that one to the grave it I were you... I'd cling to it like a dying man to a life jacket. That worthless so-and-so, how could they.... blah, blah, blah.'''. I would keep this barrage up for as long as it took to have the person say something like..''Well, hold on a minute, it wasn't quite that bad, we have some good times.''. Then I would something, ''Really?'' and they will tell me the good side of their story.

It might sound a little fictitious but I have done similar things a good many times over the past twenty years.

Well, alcohol is indeed a solvent, but it won't dissolve attachments and aversions. It will only add another attachment, to the bottle.

What is one to do? There are methods for effectively releasing attachments, but is takes some training and guidance. What I suggest you start with is simple.. start listing your attachments and aversions, become very aware of them. Observe them in self and others. Make a study of them. I can tell you that you already have plenty and there is not much point in acquiring more. Temporary attachment to your study of attachments can result is considerable pleasant detachment.

Never, ever get attached to any teaching, mine or anyone else's. They are tools in a tool kit. Use them, abuse them, do whatever you want, but eventually, place them back in your tool kit and shove it under your bed. Of course, I might come back and haunt you now and then.

Love ya, Jed.