INVISIBLE GURU FORUM
Member Forum => Member Posts => Topic started by: guest306 on January 31, 2015, 05:11:25 pm
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Hi Jed,
First of all I should mention that I was dragged kicking and screaming for most of the unwinding that has taken place. The ego (I kinda hate that term for all its misleading connotations, but hey, it seems appropriate now) did not want this waking up business at all. It resisted it with everything it got, but nonetheless here I am, despite myself. Still not quite there yet, but with my 'first step' well behind me.
At this point I'm starting to let the ox do the riding, while keeping my eyes and ears open, not even wanting to interfere too much with what is happening. Mainly, just trying to be honest to myself to the best of my ability.
I don't really have a question. Most questions have disappeared. So, I have no real reason to post a message other than To say hey, and maybe go back and forth about some things if that's ok.
I should also mention that in the past six months I have had a few private talks with someone who is fully awake and who also has some fully awake students to show for. He has been a very helpfull iconoclast indeed. But still, I would like this opportunity to speak to you.
There has been more and more silence (I find that silence is the answer asking questions brings me to) and an ever decreasing sense of a someone who is doing things. Choices are being made all the time and like the oracle said in the matrix I no longer feel it is not my place to make choices but rather my place to understand the choices that were made. I, for instance, know that I am not an interested, caring therapist (I work in mental health care) as I once liked to think. The truth is that some of the the time It takes considerable effort to care and be interested which offcourse means that interested and caring is not who I really am. This realisation is not a choice I made. It is just a truth I am now aware of (this is the understanding part).
Kind regards,
Marcel
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Hi Marcus:
Welcome to the forum and thank you for you brevity and sharing. Just wander back any time you like. I'm glad to hear you are making progress.
Love ya, Jed.
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Thanks Jed,
By the way, any weirdly constructed sentences or misplaced use of words is probably mostly due to the fact that I'm Dutch.
Oh and just out of curiousity I want to ask you if you had the experience of knowing your journey was almost over. I ask you this because the last couple of days i've been having the sense of a job almost done.
Now I don't mean to say that being awake means that there is nothing more to uncover. From what I gather awakening is an infinitely continuing process. And God knows I am only too human, weaknesses and all. But offcourse part of waking up is realizing that enlightenment doesn't make you perfect or any less human, just awake. The 'done' part just refers to the annihilation of identification with anything other than the truth (and I suspect this also does not mean that one is never tempted, however shortly, to identify again).
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Dear Marcus:
Don't worry about your English.
I used the word ''done'' without fully explaining it. You are never really done because infinity is infinite. It's like an onion that just starts pealing itself, disclosing more and more and more, all in total newness.
Love ya, Jed
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That is indeed what its like for me. Its both realizing new things and seeing old things, but then so much clearer. And then the next time, clearer again.
And the clarity always seems to result from a falling away of something, that is why its seen so much clearer. It is never the result of an adding on (e.g. a better mental understanding or theory, as is commonly thought by people in general).
So I guess being 'done' refers to not having questions anymore, being clear on what you are not and also the realization that everything unfolds, and keeps unfolding, and just following it where ever it goes.
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Not a bad way to express is... in words ??? ??? ???
Love ya, Jed.
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Ha,ha... Yeah, isn't that the ''d***dest thing' ?
But I guess this back and forth thing, although I indeed do get a little hung up on words, is about clarifying for myself whether I'm done or not. And I'm starting to realize that what's keeping me from actually acknowledging that is, by lack of a better way to say it, the idea that there is still stuff to do, because there will always be stuff to do. But I realize there are no real questions left to ask, and although there are certainly still tendencies to identify with a me, this is no longer identified as a problem. Instead there is growing trust in life, in all of its unfolding. Offcourse, none of that is the last word on being done (there is not going to be a last word, a final pass). What is important however is the simple realization that...and this feels very hard to say because it scares the hell out of me... I'm done.
I do hope I make some sense.
Kind regards,
Marcel
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Hi Jed,
Forgot to thank you, so, thank you.
By the way, I still feel shaky (in a rather unpleasent way). Part of me wants to hold on still I guess. Or maybe Its just a reflex. i don't know.
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Just stay in ''I don't know" you need to no more.
Love ya, Jed.
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Yeah, You're right.
I guess I just needed to hear that.
All I know is that I know nothing, like good old Socrates said. Never knew he might have meant to say: I know nothing so nothingness is what I know.
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Hi Jed,
Falling in the void with nothing to hold on to.
Dear me, how are we going to survive under these conditions. Ha, ha. (sorry, little black humor).
Still shaky, but starting to enjoy the ride.
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Further:
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
Went further.
Ditched Socrates.
All by my lonesome now.
No defining, equating, outside referral, words, grasping.
Feeling....peculiar...
Nothing more coming up right now. We'll see.
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8)
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Hi Jed,
Just removed every note I ever made on my ipad. Thereby removing every written acount of a realization, insight or experience I had in the past year and a half or so. Before I also used to write a lot, so there are these notebooks lying around in my house. All of them contain the sort of stuff (95% of it is not even dealing with enlightenment) I wouldn't even bother to look at now (no interest at all). I might throw them out and if it turns out they are something to hold on to I surely will. But right now it seems redundant to do so.
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Just realized the last part of my previous post was outside referal again. Talking about whether or not to toss some written notes from lang ago was just ego needing some confirmation from you, ego grasping again.
Come to think of it, probably the entire post was an attempt to get some confirmation. It's scary out there in the dark. Not knowing. But I have to. I've seen too much. I unscrewed too much. Can't go back. Don't even want to.
I say this because I know it to be true. Driving in my car today wondering if this whole waking up thing was not just some great delusion everybody (and this included every awake 'person' ) bought into, I suddenly realized: there's no turning back. And I was ok with that.
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in the end you can't hold on to anything, never could. Go for it.
Love ya, Jed ;)
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Hello Jed,
Today I asked myself if I wanted the idea of enlightenment (or being enlightened) more than I wanted truth.
I came to this question because I noticed myself steering in a certain direction when I was inquiring about questions that came up. The direction was, in all cases, aimed at some image I had about enlightenment.
Therefore I figured I had to be as honest as possible about what I really wanted. The answer came surprisingly quick and natural: I prefer truth over the idea of enlightenment/being enlightenend. Why? Quite simply because I know, experientially, that anything less than the truth is illusion/lying to myself and illusion means suffering. I cannot bare lying to myself about these things because I almost immediatly know I am kidding myself; I can feel myself forcing, defending and cramping up, losing energy and growing tired and/or frustrated.
Although I tend to just listen or watch how things unfold, I have also noticed in the past two days or so that even the questions I ask myself can be artificial. So why is that? Well, this too has to do with images about enlightenment and the process leading to it. In other words, the conviction is that I should be asking questions, investigate, throw every image I have in the fire, because this is what needs to be done. True as this might be, it will lead me astray if the motivation behind the investigating, burning, or whatever is the motivation of someone who wants to get 'there' rather than truth or honesty. The result is a mechanical, driven, artficial process of formulating questions I really don't need to answer.
Some days ago I felt the work was done, and I was right. Offcourse, everything will keep unfolding, there is much ego left to burn/fall away and there are still many moments in a day where ego is more foreground than background. But, there was a naturalness, a flow, a seeing and a lack of trying, forcing or judgment to the process of unfolding. Also there was substantially less thought and more space. There were parts of the day when I was angry when angry, tired when tired, interested when interested, bored when bored and moving when I felt like moving or did nothing when the motivation to do something was absent. This is still here now (how could it not be) but somewhat covered under the aforementioned ideas and strivings.
I got a little sidetracked by ego and I have no reason to assume that this will not happen again frequently (although I cannot be sure). But I'm ok with that. I will never be perfect, probably never be holy, and I will never arrive. Not knowing is the only way to go, and the silence of not knowing is the only true answer I'll ever get.
Love,
Marcel
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:o
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Hi Jed,
I'm not very good with emoticons. Was it shock you were expressing?
If so, I can understand why. However, I do not want to assume I know what you meant. Would you be willing to say a bit more?
Love,
Marcel
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Dear Marcus:
Don't assume you know anything, at all. In my experience, nothing can ever be known. We just all pretend and keep the game going.
Love ya, Jed
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Yes, pretending. I know what you mean.
Fot the longest time I had been thinking that something was wrong with me for not having answers. I had studied a great deal, read a lot of books on philosophy, psychology, spirituality, science never feeling like I had anything solid to say. Until I realized some time ago that it was not knowledge I gained, but theories, thoughts, opinions, guesses. This destroyed my fascination with books. made them empty. Now I sometimes read or buy books (not nearly as much as I used to) for practical purposes. They give me a framework, a story, to convey what I want to say in a way people can easily grasp (e.g. Books on neuropsychology, creativity, etc.)
I guess any verbalizing is the same thing. I know this, but at the same time don't always experience this. It feels like what I know to be true hasn't fully penetrated every aspect of my life yet. I also now that what I know will just keep on unfolding and integrating. So, we'll see how this will unfold. Thank you for pointing it out.
Love,
Marcel
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Everything is wrong.
Not just what is in books, but.....everything.
I always had the sense of something being wrong and I always thought it was me, or some person or circumstance. All of my life I have been trying to make it right. But it can't be done.
No perspective, thought, or concept, it doesn't matter which one, is true. I knew this all along, or rather I felt it deeply. And all the while I have been pretending, deluding myself that it could somehow be made right. It can't, it won't, it's just not true.
Sure for a while one can pretend that everything is in order, nothing is wrong, but sooner or later the truth is revealed, the delusion is uncovered, leaving one wondering how this could have happened or what went wrong. Nothing went wrong. What is, is what is. Nothing can be said about it. It cannot be any other way, and therfore it is perfect. Just from the perspective of some paradigm, what happened couldn't, shouldn't have happened and is experienced as wrong. But from the truth 'perspective' (it is not a perspective but I have no other way to say this) nothing is wrong, everything is just the way it is, and cannot be any other way. No knowing, no concepts, no roles, no meaning, just truth.
Realizing everything is delusion feels pervasively unearthing, I see how this could be equated with dying, but it is truth. I could go on about this for a while, but I think I have communicated what I wanted to communicate.
Love,
Marcel
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Well expressed Marcel, but it's all b.s. and now you understand why.
Love ya, Jed.
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Yep, it's b.s. upon b.s. all the way down ;)
So, nothing left to say really...
Then again, I'm having fun posting on this thread. So we could go back and forth a few times more, just for the heck of it.
Still don't know what we would be talking about though. Ah well, we'll see.
Love
Marcel
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;)
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Hi Jed,
Not mich has changed since my last post. I observe I'm basically doing, feeling and thinking the same things as before. There is one difference. Most of it doesn't bother me anymore. And the things that do bother me, I don't get all cramped up about (I'm not thinking that this or that shouldn't bother me anymore).
There's 'nice things' like a sense of space and non-judgment, not being taken in by the drama so much.
There's also physical unpleasantness like: pressure on my chest, and heart palpitations.
The latter are probably due to stress (there has been an unexpected death in the family two days ago which, for various reasons, involves a lot of stress). It could also be a by-product of what I've realized (you know releasing large amounts of emotional energy, or the body adjusting to processing more energy). It could also be both, or perhaps even neither, who knows.
I also realize that realizing truth has not made me immune to trying to find explanations for things. This post is a clear example of that. But, as I said. It doesn't bother me. I take it as it comes.
That's it for now. i'm going to sleep. It is actually 1:55 a.m. in the Netherlands right now, and it's going to be another full day tomorrow.
Love,
Marcel
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Excellent.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
This thread is nearing its end.
Don't really want it to. I enjoy your company.
But there's just nothing coming up anymore.
Well, there is a lot coming up actually. But nothing to discuss.
I'm even starting to repeat myself.
But that wont be entertaining for long.
Ending this thread means returning as one of a few butterflies to a world full of caterpillars.
Not looking forward to that actually.
Also, I don't know what to do with myself anymore. Life now is devoid of meaning, aim or answers. I'm just sitting here with an empty glass and nothing to fill it with. I know this is the truth and everything else is illusion and suffering. But it is also clear that I still have some adjusting to do.
Love,
Marcel
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Dear Marcel:
As you know, it's not over yet and there is some worldly adjustments. I suggest we just leave your thread as it is and you know you can come back anytime and say hello, or perhaps just hang on for moment while things spin a little.
Best wishes to you,
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
Thanks for your kind offer to stand by me while I adjust.
I guess I could use some help when things start to get rough.
So I will keep this thread open.
See you later.
Love Marcel
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;)
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Hey Jed,
Posting a little bio seems appropriate today. Here goes.
When I was about sixteen I had a glimpse of what I now recognise as a waking up 'experience'. Offcourse it was not an experience at all. But rather the fabric of reality as I knew it back then crumbling, leaving me utterly depressed and very fearfull. At the time I had no way of understanding what was happening, nor was I ready to accomodate. So I made up some story to make some sense of what was going on. At that time I told myself that what I had been doing in the months before (losing my faith in a Christian God and showing some rebellious behavior towards him/her/it) was wrong and that I was going to pay dearly for my transgressions after death; i would not have an afterlife but rather I would spend eternity alone in the void. Actually I was losing a lot more than what I had told myself at that time (a rather important friendship, a sense of belonging). But I chose to focus on this one particular story. Presently I find it interesting to see how ego hijacked truth realization (by turning the void into a punishment) in an attempt to hold on. it is even more wondrous to realize that it infused belief into something I reallly did not believe in anymore.
Needless to say, a future wherein I was to spend eternity alone it total utter blackness was not a prospect I (ego) could cope with very well. So I developed a full blown obsessive compulsive disorder in an attempt to regaing a sense of control, and assuage my fear and depression. And for the next decade or so, control became the main focal point of my life. Then, somewehere in my mid twenties OCD dropped away, and life returned - somewhat but not quite - to normal.
so why Am I telling you this. Well for the past few months as the process of waking up was intensifying I had a reoccurance of OCD. At present it still is with me. In the last week or so I have finally recognized it for what it is (an attempt to regain a sense of control, and also passify this pervasive feeling of something being very wrong)', also seeing very clearly that what I am trying to do by my attempts to control cannot be done and that this feeling of something being very wrong is caused by a belief, an ego story. This has not yet caused obsessive compulsive behavior to cease, but at the same time I find that this does not bother me.
Ok. That's it for now. Gotta go.
Love,
Marcel
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8)
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Hello Jed,
I wanted to post today without really knowing what to say. Guess I'm gonna find out.
In the past few days there have been some questions buzzing in my head. Questions I know I wont be able to answer, but nonetheless they are there. They come up, then fall away again. Probably they are some attempt of ego to reinvest my energy in pursuing the dream state again, but I'm not sure, and I'm not invested in finding out either. I just see them come and go. Not knowing increasingly becoming the place I venture from, not to.
The questions that has come up the most is the following one: what will happen after this body-mind, this venture point, has come to an end? Will consciousness continue (I do not mean consciousness of self, but consciousness in general) or not? Will seeing continue from all the other venture points, and will this venture point just stop, or will, something completely different happen? Offcourse, as I said, no answer can be expected to these questions. I sense consciousness will not mind either way, but it could just be my mind projecting expectations rather than experience answering.
I'm pretty sure ego is just trying to get a handle on things again. It is ok. i relax into it and let it happen (this is not a choice it is just the way it goes).
Then on a somewhat different note I have been playing with imagined scenarios in which people would aks me questions about truth or what I have realized. In all cases I found that I was not able to say anything about it. I would have to say that I don't know, or that nothing has been realized (I mean this quite literally). How about that huh?
I'm very curious how things will continue to unfold and me posting here is just a way to express what has been going on, rather than an attempt to get some answers or something. Offcourse I like the idea of you reading how things have been unfolding for me, and maybe giving some feedback when you feel I need it.
That's it for now.
Love,
Marcel
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Dear Marcus:
Find out who want to know all that you speak of, and if anyone asks, just smile. If they really push just tell then you love them, that usually shuts them up. A big hug is also nice. Scares most folks.
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
Ha, ha. Hugging would indeed be an effective scare tactic. It also reminds me of the zen master who would meet students mundane questions with 'spiritual' answers (e.g. Could you pass me the knife? Answer: Who's asking?) and spiritual questions with mundane answers (e.g. What is the nature of reality? Answering by handing them the breadknife blade in front.). I could have distorted this story by the way since I really cannot remember much about what the guy actually said or did.
Then I like the comment you made about finding out who's asking. As I said in my last post I realize some identification is responsible for these questions, but it could certainly not hurt to find out what it is exactly that is asking these questions. At this point my answer to this question would be: ego. For it would rather see itself survive, even in some unpersonal/transcendental form, rather than know itself to be temporary/illusion. I guess it is the trap of transcendentalism a lot of people fall into and now I fell into. ego, no longer being able to identify with personal consciousness much and now trying to take up a stronghold in pure consciousness itself.
Isn't it funny how the same thing keeps coming back again and again. It isn't what I expected. I thought that if the veil was seen through, it would be seen through once and for all. But this does not seem to be the case. The same thing is seen through again and again, yet more subtle each time. Offcourse this also means the same fear , disorientation and helplessness returning again and Again. Well, I should now better by now. This truth thing is gonna go all the way, or not at all.
Love,
Marcel
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Addendum to my last post.
While rereading your answer to my before last post I realized that smiling or hugging is actually what consciousness does, metaphorically speaking. It meets everything, welcomes everything. Denies nothing. It does not give ego what ego wants, because what ego wants is what is not, and not what is.
It does not give a stone when asked for bread, it gives bread. It does not give illusion when asked for truth, it gives truth. And what is truth? It is not a smile, a hug, or the occasional slap in the head. That is just the finger pointing to the moon. It's further...it's closer. It's ....slipping trough my fingers trying to speak about it. But only because I'm trying to get a handle on it. And the I that is trying to get a handle on it? That, again is ego wanting something solid, wanting a stone that quite simply isn't there. It's better to just shut up and eat bread.
Love,
Marcel
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Addendum 2
To stay with the metaphor of my previous post just a little bit longer...i want to add the following to it.
It's better to shut up and share bread.
Love Marcel
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:D
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Dear Jed,
There has been some serious death anxiety going on these last couple of days. Guess there's still some identification with the body. At least that is what I find when I look into it.
That whole neti, neti thing by the way, you know 'i'm aware of my body therefore I am not my body'. Never could convince me. Offcourse by now I know that I could not be convinced because I was trying to convince myself of something. Trying to get somewhere, realize something. I was postulating rather than looking. All of that is old hat by now.
So what do I find when I really look?
I do find a body, or rather, I find physical sensations. There is also awareness of physical sensations, without which the body could not be felt. In other words: without awareness there would be no sensations, no body, no world for that matter. in addition awareness remains unaffected by any changes in the body. Awareness is just awareness.
But would awareness still be without form? Offcourse this brings me back to the questions I asked a few posts ago. And then I could ask: who wants to know? Who is this me that wants to know? . I cannot point to the me that wants to know. Sure, there's fear, there's thoughts, but where is the me producing these things? Is it my brain? Am I an epiphenomenon of brain processes? Sure, there's a sense of I undoubtedly produced by my brain, and this sense of me could change when my brain changes but then the questions could araise again: who's aware of all this? And then I find that who's aware of all this is awareness, compeletely unaffected by anything that goes on in the brain (it doesn't change with age, mood, emotikn, etc.). But is that awareness not also a product of brain processes?
Who wants to know?
Etc. Etc.
Anyway, in all of this no I can be found. There's sensations, thoughts, questions, fear and all of that, but no I that wants to know anything. There's just things happening. No I having experiences. i've realized this many times before. Questions arise and are put to rest. Silence remains. but still I keep getting deluded, sidetracked. I gets created over and over again, and then questions an fear arise. I keeps saying this isn't satisfactory, this isn't enough. I wanna live forever! give me something!
Anyway, I'll stop my rambling for now.
Love,
Marcel
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Dear RTO;
You want to live forever and want answers...
O.K. You will live forever, you were never born and will never die.
Next. State your question, just one, and it must be crystal clear.
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
Isn't it amazing..There have been all these realizations, all this casting and burning away. Ending up with nothing, not knowing. I've realized who I am many times but still, but still..not fully apparently.
Now for my clear question.
It is this. Who am I, truly?
A question by the way I have asked myself many times before. And it always ended in not knowing, in silence. In a felt ' I am' .
But maybe its time to return to it yet again.
By the way. What does RTO mean? i tried to look it up but had no succes.
Love Marcel
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Yes, there is big problem, we don't see who we are, your are Riding the Ox, RTO, what could be more obvious, enlightenment???
Love ya, Jed
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Dear Jed,
Now if that is not a nice metaphor I don't know what is. Jezus, looked right past that one and goofed off in a completely wrong direction instead.
Love,
RTO
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Dear Jed,
As you know, the last few posts I have been trying to steer the ox rather than riding it facing backwards. I think the anxiety was to big a temptation for me and I tried to grab hold of something for a sense of control.
But now I've turned around and let the ox do the riding again.
Sitting in my car I tried to adress the question I formulated but found no energy to pursue it. Not because I have lost interest in truth, quite the contrary actually. But because i have already traveled that road. I have asked my questions, I 've seen were they take me. They have served their purpose. They take me right into not knowing, silence, nothingness. And that's were the ox does the riding and I need to sit back and enjoy (or abhor whichever is more appropriate) the scenery. It is clear to me that I haven't come home yet. I have, for example, not realized I am unborn and cannot die. But my sense is that riding the ox, staying in nothingness, silence, I am, not knowing or whatever one wants to call it, is where I need to be to be to remove the last remaining obstacles and see who I truly am. During my ride things will come up and I will adress them until the ride is over and I have come home.
In short: the part where the I does all sorts of stuff in an effort to wake up is over, right now I need to - as I said before - shut up, keep my eyes open, and eat bread.
I do think this is what I need to do. However I trust you to let me know if all what I have said in this post is a load of b.s. I promise you I will listen to your feedback and comply with any suggestion you make. For it is truth that I want more than anything else.
Love,
RTO
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Dear Marcus:
Of course it's all b.s. We can't open our mouths without spewing b.s., but I quite enjoy your b.s and urge you to keep it up until....
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
Continuing spewing b.s. is something I wont have a problem doing ;)
I'm glad you enjoy reading my posts. As you know I enjoy going back and forth with you to.
I also want to thank you for your trust, as that is how I interpret your answer to my last post.
I'll speak to you soon.
Love,
Marcel
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;) ;) ;)
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Dear Jed,
Its been 4 days since my last post which means I'm now breaking the longest radiosilence since I started posting here.
The radiosilence could have easily been longer I suppose, since there is really nothing to say about what's going on. But for some reason I wanted to post today so...here I am!
Its been business as usual. Everyday there has been awareness of one or more, subtle or less subtle ways, of identifying, desiring or controlling. The body has been the main, though not the only, focus this week. There's been all kinds of physical discomforts, pains and accompanying emotions (fear of death) and thoughts. All aggravated by attempts to control and an unwilligness to trust in what is uncontrollable. Seeing this, control is then let go of, only to return again in some other way or form.
Burning away, burning away not being able to turn one blond hair into gray.
This is how it goes. I imagine it will be some time before controlling and identifying will cease (if ever). And I really don't know what will happen (If anything) when this day arrives.
Love Marcel
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Burn faster and harder....
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
This is going to be a haphazard message. I probably need some more time to let this sink in. But I just wanted to tell you.
Listening to Alan Watts (although I don't think circumstances matter too much) it suddenly dawned on me. It is the most obvious thing there is. It's the most obvious answer to any question I ask. It's actually discontinuing the constant denial of what is.
Now I'm not a zen guy, but somehow reactions/answers to these koans popped in my mind.
What was your original face before your parents were born. Nothing (not any thing).
What is the sound of one had clapping. clap, clap (me clapping my hands, oneness clapping)
Who am I. Nothing, not anything, everything. All of the above. None of the above.
I have been running away drom this in dread. Terrified to die. Thinking, this can't be it, this must not be it, I cannot handle this. But it is it. And now I've stopped running. Fear of death is gone. this realization: it's the most obvious thing there is. It is completely ordinary. I am nothing. Nothing is everything. Everything is nothing, what I am is what everything is. I was never born, I will never die.
Something shifted.
There's no good way to say all this but again, I just wanted to tell you.
Love,
Marcel
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Dear M:
Thanks for sharing, but it's not over.... keep knock, knock, knockin on heaven's door.
Love ya, Jed.
P.S. excellent!
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Dear Jed,
That cold black cloud is coming down.. So I'll just keep on knockin'.
Or maybe I'll do a knock, knock yoke (not a typo by the way).
Knock, knock...
Who's there?
No one...
Well, no need to open the door then, is there?
Oh wait...Is that me trying to be cute?
Yes sir it is. ;D
Love,
Marcel
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>:( >:( >:( ;D
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Dear Jed,
It has been a while. Just wanted to let you know I haven't given up.
There's interesting stuff happening. I'm literally losing a sense of me as a seperate me, or an other as an other for that matter. What remains is much less defined, much less identified.
See ya later.
Love Marcel
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Usually it's the sense of having a body that goes first. Eventually, everything in the universe goes. then....
Love ya, Jed.
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8)
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Dear Jed,
I feel another radiosilence coming up. Don't know how long this one will last.
See ya later.
Love Marcel
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shhhhhhh..
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
I could quickly summarize my short absence from this forum by saying: nothing has been realized. By that I don't mean to say that I have realized nothingness, or no-thingness, or had any other realization concerning reality.
I just mean to say: nothing has been added.
But even that sounds too much like I've attained something, which I have not.
In the past few days, as so many days before, there has been wave after wave of commenting, of footnotes to what is actually happening. And in some cases commenting on comments, or footnoting footnotes, or....you get the idea.
Seeing this, or rather, seeing the dishonesty of it (commenting is always about wanting something to be other than it is) and subsequently the fruitlessness of it (what is cannot be anything other than what it is), commenting dropped untill the next wave, and the next and the next.
All of this I've said before. So again, there's nothing new to report. Or maybe, well.. there is something..I seem to be losing the urge to lie to myself, or to you for that matter. Seeing every last one of my posts here, and every other internal comment for what it is: an attempt to make something true that is not true. But also seeing that sometimes lying or deluding myself is what I do, and trying not to do that, again, is trying to make something true that is not.
i do not have the power to alter anything, nor do I have the power to let anything be. But that is already saying too much.
saying anything at all messes it up. And not saying anything at all, messes it up to. There's no way to keep it, there's no way to lose it. Add anything, even nothing, and completely miss it.
Writing this makes matters worse, but if I wouldn't have written this, it wouldn't have been any better.
I tire, get angry, impatient, unreasonable, I continue doing, thinking and feeling everything I did, thought and felt before. There's no difference, none. Sometimes there is a sense of an I doing stuff and sometimes there is not. Sometimes there is silence and peace and sometimes there is not. Sometimes I am nothing, sometimes I am something, sometimes everyone is God, and sometimes there are just people. In terms of enlightenment having or not having these experiences, these crests and waves, doesn't matter. Not one bit. It is not what it's about.
What it is about I really cannot say. Lord knows I am trying, this entire post has been an attempt to do just that (knowing full well I wont be able to). its extremely simple, but I just cannot find the words. The best I can do is circle around it.
So here I am circling.
Love,
Marcel
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... row, row, row your boat...
Love ya, Jed.
-
Life is but a dream...
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
.....
Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
Love,
Marcel
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::) ::) ::)
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Hi Jed,
I think Paul Hedderman coined the term: travelling lighter, to describe what going through life while being awake is like. I like the term.
It's an acute description of my experience. When everything that is not true is burned away, enlightenment, travelling lighter is what is Left. So what does one discover or know by waking up?
Nothing, absolutely nothing. Everything is left behind, every untruth, every illusion requiring confirmation, upkeep, thought, effort, and energy to stay alive is dropped untill nothing is left. Then one can row gently down the stream travelling ever so lightly and merrily, cos life is but a dream.
Love Marcel
-
by the way. Nothing is not nothing. It is everything, including nothing.
Ow man. Now I'm defining again. Sigh. Nothing I can do about it.
When grabbing is going on, it is going on. Including being bummed about grabbing again.
There is no escape. Everything I write right now is false, illusion. Every truth, confession, feeling, sentencem word, has a goal: enlightenment. But not the truth, travlling lighter kind. But the muddy, pompous, pufferfish wannabe kind.
Worse than that. I want to communicate thispufferfish enlightenment. Hold it up for you to see, so you can say...you did good, welcome to the club. All of this is strategy, including the frank disclosure I'm currently spewing. I do grow tired of it. I really do grow tired of it returnin again and again and again.
The damn thing just keeps getting back up. Like rocky balboa or worse, some kind of hydra monster.
Thats is what you'll get for messing with mirages right. Me growing tired, the mirage remaining untouched, unscathed.
But offcourse there is no mirage. There is just the desert, and me in it dreaming off fresh waters and having the occasional nightmare. Or maybe there is just the desert dreaming. Or maybe, or maybe....i'll just stop now. This is going nowhere.....I can feel thoughts coming again. Thoughts about going nowhere and about what that means. Is this what I want to do for the next couple of minutes? No. I don't. Think I'll just stop.
See ya,
Marcel
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What the hell am I fighting against?
i'm fighting barriers. Windmills. Mirages. Wel, at least I'm a knight now albeit a deluded one.
Why am I fighting?
Because i think there are barriers. Are there?
i really don't know.
No that's not true. There are no barriers. There are just waves. There is just what is. And everything fighting the current is creating me. cos thats what me is, friction. And even thats not a problem, just another wave. A 'me' wave.
Love Marcel
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'Me waves' are an expression of truth. There is nothing wrong with truth, there is nothing wrong with me waves. It just is.
Thinking yourself to be a continuous me wave, apart from other me waves, is being in the windmill fighting business. It can be quite entertaining to do for a while, or to watch, But in the end it's hopelessly tiresome, frustrating and fear producing. But even that is what is, and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that either. It is however not what I want. And I do hope to be an awake servant one day, if that is what truth is, instead of a deluded knight.
Love Marcel
-
Make that I want truth at any price. And I want it now.
Oh man, there we go again.
Sorry. This will probably continue for a while. I'll rturn when the dust has settled.
Love marcel
-
The dust is making me sneeze....
Love ya, Jed
-
Hi Jed,
The flue caught me. Yesterday my temperature was a 104. Today it's back to normal. I still find it quite difficult to organize my thoughts though. But I'm going to post anyway.
it seems I have nothing to ask or write about so I'll just go ahead and see where the road will take me.
Nothing is coming up right now. Well, thoughts are coming up, but as I am in the process of writing them down, I start wondering if they are actually true. My conclusion is that I don't know, but that's enough for me to not write them down.
I don't know if I'm making progress here, but feeling I am making progress is something that is not to be expected since both progress and knowing are relative, ego, maya terms.
So I'm heading on I guess. Going nowhere. I do ask myself if this pergatory (which dante descibes as a place where sorrow nor pleasure exist) will ever end. What makes pergatory, pergatory? Not wanting to be where I currently am. So I guess pergatory stops when I no longer resist what is, which offcourse cannot be done. Well, maybe that's what this whole spiritual process is all about. Cutting down every resistance to what is, one by one, untill nothing is left.
Love,
Marcel
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wanting = desire... gets ya every time.
Love ya. Jed.
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Dear Jed,
I wanted to let you know I'm still here. Everyday I ask myself if I should post something. Everyday I find there is nothing to post. Today is no different, except for the need to say 'hey, I'm still around'.
Love Marcel
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I get it, you are still around. Ah... therein lies the problem.
Love ya, Jed.
-
Dear Jed,
I'm trying to be as honest as possible here.
Lately I find there are no questions. Not because everything is clear, not even because I now know who i am and what truth is. There have been no 'no self' or 'i am everything' realizations. I have found nothing out about me, zilch, nada, niets (threw in a little Dutch there for ya).
There's just the all pervasive 'knowing' that whatever happens, happens, and does so spontanuously. there is nothing I can do about what happens or what is, except resist. Which, by the way, will not even slow down what happens a tiny bit. It will only make sure i suffer through whatever is happening. Offcourse, rsisting what is happening is what is happening to, and therefore even suffering is not something under my control. Nothing is under my control. the spiritual process, truth realization, whether I have green eyes or brown eyes, what thought I'm going to have next, my opinion about anything, nothing...nothing is under my control.
So I tend not to be bothered too much with what is happening. Even if what is happening is very unspiritual (me getting mad, me trying to control, me complaining about something, etc.). There is just nothing I can do about it. If it is what is happening right now it is what is happening right now, and all I can do is ride it out, and wait for it to pass. I realize that what I am expressing here could easily be misinterpreted. Some misguided soul could use this to justify acting like an a**hole and not taking responsibility for anything. This is offcourse not what I'm pointing at, quite the contrary actually.
Offcourse I am aware of the fact that what I have written so far has to come from knowing there is no self. i guess this is true, it is just that knowing there is no self is not really a positive conclusion one comes to, it is more like what remains after all the untruth has been removed. In my case it is something unspoken, something that is very obviously at the heart of what I think, feel and do, it is just not an explicit conclusion. Does this make sense?
Do you know I actually feel quite drained now writing this stuff down. It seems that I am losing my motivation for expressing things; even expressing myself here is getting to feel like a burden. It is partly because I know that i will not be able to express what I am trying to express. words become increasingly hard to find and my thoughts tend to organize themselves less or dissolve before becoming clear enough to write down. All of this makes writing a very tiring thing to do. So I'll stop for now.
Love,
Marcel
P.s. While posting this you posted an answer to my previous post. i also want to reply to this post by saying that you are indeed right. Me still being around was indeed the problem. Ha, ha. But I'll think you'll find in what I've posted above that there is not much left of me, at least not enough to bother me anymore.
-
Thank you for your efforts.
Love ya, Jed.
-
Hi Jed,
I should thank you as well for your efforts. They are greatly appreciated.
The past few weeks have been hell. And I do mean hell
All this unprocessed stuff came up. A lot of guilt. As a result I was/am depressed and fearfull for these past few weeks and very obsessive compulsive. I tried to control the fear produced by guilt in every way I possibly could (even compulsive behavior). I realized what I was doing, but wasn't able to stop. I couldn't stop because I did not want to look at what it was that produced the guilt. Instead i just reacted to it. Depression also was a way to cope; a freeze reaction. It took me long to write you for the aforementioned reasons and even now It feels I'm wading through thick mud, hardly moving and pausing regularly to catch my breath.
The past few days I have been trying to look at what it was that produced this guilt in me. Offcourse I found it was a thought. A thought I believed, against all my efforts not to believe it. And because all my efforts were aimed at this belief and tried to go against it, i never stopped to ask if it was actually true. The answer: I don't know.
I also found that a more fundamental belief/thought was underneath the belief I now did not know to be true or false. The more fundamental belief is: I am unacceptable. There is an obvious identification here.
I will continue to explore. For now I am tired (it's almost 1 am in the Netherlands). So goodnight.
Love Marcel
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Hi Jed,
(The illusion of) control = imprisonment.
A slightly christian way to say this is that let thine will be done, is the only freedom there is. Shame, hiding, guilt, seperateness are all product of the knowledge of good and evil/duality/ego/personal will.
Could the word ' knowledge' be the most important word in the previous sentence I wonder: knowing is feeling seperate from God. Not knowing is being one with God.
Anyway, imprisonment, I realized is no way to live. ultimately it's the price you pay for control, but its to steep a price to pay. It's being dead while alive, its being closed rather than open, unavailable rather than available, hurt and hurting others rather than being love itself.
Controlling, in my case, is basically a form of hiding (There are things that cannot be thought, said, done by me/others). Hidng in turn is a reaction to the thought: I am unacceptable. I never quite realized how my withdrawn behavior my self doubt, my difficulty to express, were all little forms of imprisonment, consequences of the belief that i am unacceptable. This is all perfectly obvious, but for some reasin I just didn't see it.
I'll explore furher..
Love,
Marcel
.
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Yes, explore further until you get you ''ýou'' and ten give up exploring, just be.
Love ya, Jed.
-
Hi Jed,
I want control.
What is control?
The power to determine, to cause.
What is determining or causing?
Making something happen. but offcourse for it to be a cause it cannot have a cause Itself. If it has a cause, it is just part of a chain of events.
It is quite obvious that in this sense I do not cause or determine, or control. In this sense everything I do is without causeless cause, and is therefore part of a chain of events.
Every event is, and has to be, linked with every other event. In other words: everything that's happening conspires to everything happening the way it is happening, or amounts to the only possible way in which everything can happen.
There is no seperate cause.
If there is no seperate cause, no something that causes another something there is not two, reality is nondual.
But I have to backtrack for a minute here. Because there is still an I that has to be looked at.
If I say that I want control, who is this I?
If I look I find thoughts and feelings, memories, roles and bodily sensations. Now the way this happens is that a thought, feeling, or whatever appears in awareness Where does it come from? I don't know. Why. Because prior to the awareness of this thought appearing there is no knowledge of it. I cannot say it existed, I cannot say it didn't exist, I cannot say anything about it. So a thought appears, out of void (which is not nothing, it is something nothing can be said of, there is no awareness of it), and feeling, and sensing, and all these things, even the thought I comes out of this void. But there is no I producing thoughts, feelings, etc, there is just void. And in this void, everything appears as awareness. Now offcourse this also means that awareness does not appear apart from what it is aware of. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.
Ok, I'm drifting off again.
Back to the I business.
So this I who I say wants control is a form, a shape consciousness takes ( in this case a thought). Now this I cannot want anything, since it is just thought. And control is, like everything else, the illusion of seperateness in action.
And who am I really?
I really can't say for there is no awareness of who I really am. I can only say that I am not what I appear to be (ha, ha).
Ok Jed, I based this self investigation purely on experience. I seriously tried to avoid theorizing, instead I just tried to report observations. This is what I came up with.
Love Marcel
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Theorize until you burn up all your theories.
Love ya, Jed.
-
Man, walked right into that one huh?
I'll take you up on your advice. Later this evening I will give some serious attention to this, right now ther's walking walking the dog, being with my son and dispensing coffee to the guy fixing my washing machine later today.
See ya later,
Marcel
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I suggest you write out your theories, otherwise they will tend to go round and round and round,,,
Love ya (in theory), Jed
-
Thought about things, wrote them out. Got halfway, then stopped for what I wrote seemed 'thought up' , artificial, Untruthfull. I guess this is how the process goes.
Today a question arose. A surprising one.
What if I'm not who I think I am?
Surprising because the question implies a me that thinks it is a bunch of things. Never quite thought of myself that way before. Weird huh?
Surprising also because of the sheer number of things the me thinks it is. Thought I shed most of it by now. If I listen to satsangs, spirituel teachers I immediatly sense who is b.s. -ing and who's not. Also there is always the simple recognition that what they are talking about is also my own experience. So, in a way I must have shed a lot but, surprisingly so, a lot/some of it still remains.
What if I'm not who I think I am?
There's no thoughts following this question. Just silence and openess. Lightness. It is a questions that opens up, rather than one that produces ideas, beliefs or thoughts.
I don't know who I am. I seem to be misinformed when I think I know. I feel connection, presence when I am with others. What is there is connection, presence. When there's no stuff (identfications) there is presence, connection. When there is identification there are repeating and very old, and very boring/tiresome/painfull stories.
So now I'm following your advice. I just am.
Love,
Marcel
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Hi Marcel:
You can only be what your are, why not look and see is you ''are''?
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
I can only see from what I am, what I am cannot be seen.
Everything that appears, dissapears, still I am and remain...unknowm
When this body mind dies, everything dissapears, the whole universe dissapears, still I remain.
Love Marcel
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That about sums it up.
Love ya, Jed.
-
It's the tiniest thing really.
See ya later
Marcel
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Hi Jed,
I'm back! But probably not for long.
There have been no more questions for quite some time now.
They all fell away.
Sure there's still pain, doubt, fear, agony and every other thing under the sun, all quite unspiritual lthings But hey. I just thank God I'm not a perfect illuminated being, for then I would have to wage war against every human imperfection observed by me.
I just live lighter. I dont have ro do, think or feel all these things anymore. Even stopped meditating a while back. What a relief! No more yoga, psychology books. Philosophy, sports, and other ways to better myself. No more fighting against what is. No more pretending I am superhuman, in control, or what not. I'm just....me. Sometimes obsessive, sometimes feeling inferior, sometimes calm, sometimes enjoying nature, sometimes this or that. All these things visit me. Sometimes they take up everty bit of consciousness, and then I'll ride them for a few minutes, hours, or even a day. And then that's it, they leave. Then something else comes along. Ans so it goes, wave after wave.
Just wanted to share.
Love,
Marcel
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Excellent Marcel:
Thanks for sharing.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi jed,
No more friends, no more ambitions.
Yet there are scarier and darker things stil. Begging for attention. Don't want to go there. i run away, as fast as I can. But the damt thing just keeps Getting bigger and Bigger. And now its right in my face, staring me down. And i am closing my eyes, kicking and screaming. Sooner or later I Will have to give in...probably.
Love,
Marcel
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It's like jumping in that cold water, more energy is expending in anticipating than just doing it.
Love ya, Jed.
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Funny you should mention that. For the longest time I was too afraid to jump in the deep end of a pool. In the end They practically had to push me in.
What happened, often did so despite of me, not because of me.
-
Cheeers...
-
Ad fundum ;)
Intelligence went, it went some time ago already.
Knowledge is going.
Fatherhood is on its way out (which is downright scary. Offcourse, as you would know, this is not necessarily the end of fatherly behavior (in my case it is not the end of fatherly behavior) nor is it neccesarily the end of love (love is still very present). Its just the end of the context, fatherhood, the end of the concept or Meaning. Still, it is scary as hell.
A lot of other, smaller, stuff went aswell. Still, I'm not done.
Love,
Marcel
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Good work Marc... stick with it.
Love ya, Jed
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Hi Jed,
why does life have to be long? Why should everybody aspire to that. Why would (evolutionairy) longevity be equated with succes? why could shortlived absurdity not be a measure of succes? why prefer productivity over its oppositie.
There's no way to answer these, and a myriad of other, axiomatic questions in a way that's beyond discussion.
Love Marcel
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Then answer is turn around and find out who is asking.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
The questions were not meant as questions, They were more like statements.
After Reading the philosophy vs. Science vs. Religion debate in your 'play' book I suddenly realized that some of societies axioms were also mine (e.g. Survival equates success, productivity is good) and that I, up to that point, had been quite unaware that this was the case. Now I saw them for what they were; axioms, i.e. Untrue, false. The questions were meant to reflect the disattachment with what was formerly held by me as true.
Still, offcourse, who is asking is always a relevant thing to say. In this case the who asking was conscious awareness. But then again conscious awareness wouldn't be asking anything now would it. So who was asking? Maybe I could say: the guy travelling a bit lighter for having discarded Some bagage he was previously unaware of. But then who is this Guy? Maybe the best answer I could give would be: bagage. But I don't know if that is true. It seems to convenient. So probably the best thing I could honestly say is what I have said here so many times before already: I don't know!? I never seem to be able to figure it out once and for all. And maybe, as I have also said before: not knowing IS the answer.
So maybe I do not know who is asking the questions, but it's the same thing that is giving the answers.
Love Marcel
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Dear M:
Being in a genuine ''don't know'' place has a certain subtle energy to it. An opening to anything that it might be and yet, not believing that either. If you believe something it is baggage and the superficial you is built on the past and beliefs that your memories actually occurred and you have a good representation of them. You may have evidence of a memory, but it also might be ''planted'' evidence, you just ''don't know'' do you?
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed
I recognize the not knowing you speak of. There have been a few times when there was a genuine not knowing. To me it felt like an open, alive stillness.
And your right, My previous post wasn't like that. It was à very cognitive not knowing.I kinda knew that when I wrote it, but still I went ahead. Guess sometimes illusion is preferred over truth. Then again, since I posted the illusion, maybe it is not. The process probably works in unexpected ways. Often when I look back, it seems like most everything that happened was pushing me along towards waking up.
The rest of what you said I'll let that sink in for a while, and come back to it.
Love Marcel
-
Cheers....
-
Dear Jed,
I cannot speed things up. My 'not knowing' up till know always occured when I ran out of cognitive steam, so to speak, then thinking was almost physically felt to collapse and then there it was....
But there is no way to control the process. if I do it because I want to get to not knowing, then I'm like the buddhist trying to get rid of desire, only to find himself desiring to get rid of desire.
If your motivation is of, it is of. And there's not a d*** thing you can do about it. Unless offcourse...
You know what the trouble with trying to speak truthfully is, you can always find fault with anything you say. Because, as we have already established, anything you say is b.s. In fact it's b.s. All the way down. There's no way out of it, and once that fully penetrates, not knowing remains. but, as I said, this occurs when it occurs, and not a second sooner, and in my exprecience it is certainly not the result of any conscious attempt to get to not knowing, although one should certainly try if one feels so inclined.
So what has all of this to do with memory and identity? Well it's bound to have something to do with it. Anyway, what you said remains with me and will probably steer me more towards memory, identity and bagage for the next couple of days.
Love Marcel
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Excellent ...
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
I'm sorry about this in advance, but I'm gonna rant a little. And I cannot promise it will be a coherent rant either, although it might turn out to be coherent. Also, the rant might be exceeding the 200 word max. Although I'll edit it a little when I'm finished so as to not make it too long.
First a confession: I am not interested in what is true. I do not recognize myself in those people whose sole obsession it is to find what is true. I do not find myself pondering or writing about truth every free minute of every free day. Often times I just watch stupid youtube videos, read such things as the showbizz or sports section of the newspaper, get in predicatble arguments with my wife over trivial matters, and so on.
If you ask me what I am about then, the honest answer is that I am yet to figure that out.
Being honest (truthfull) certainly is something I am interested in. i am trying to be as honest as possible about myself...to myself.
Being honest is just about the simplest thing there is. To be honest you only have to observe what is...Offcourse what is, is not always what one wants it to be, and therein lies the difficulty. Then, when I am not carefull I find myself attempting to delude, or lie to myself.
For example, i have found that when I find myself taking considrable time thinking about arguments why something is the case (for example why I am right and others are wrong) I know that nine out of ten times I am actively denying the simple fact that it is not the case (I am wrong).
the truth does not have to defend itself to be true. anything that needs constant maintenance cannot be true.
I feel/felt I should obsessively search for enlightenment, I feel post apocalyptic sceneries should be the aftermath of waking up, I feel like waking up should be like dying, and so this is what I'm gonna be searching for. not for truth, not for enlightenment, but for the Jed Mc Kenna enlightenment experience. i see this around me all the time. i see all these people searching for enlightenemt, molding their own experiences to fit their guru's. or at least, well, it is what I see in myself anyway. i see it when i read back some of my own posts. This is not Truthfull. If I have learned anything through this quest so far is that enlightenment has nothing to do with frantically searching for some insight or experience. It is right here, it is what is...it is just that. For what does happen if one is completely truthfull? There is no resistance. And what if there is no resistance? This question cannot be answered through words. It is somehwat like a koan maybe, all I can say is that no resistance is the same thing as not knowing. Which, by the way, is what I find when I try to be completely truthfull about myself. if I try to be as truthfull as I can, there is nothing definite to say about myself. It is for example impossible for me to formulate something I feel passionate about, what I really want to do professionally, what hobby I would like to do. Sure I can say something about what I would like to do now, but something I would like to do for the next few years....Sjeezz that is impossible. Feeling exceedingly dispassionate about nearly anything also contributes to the diffculty in making long term plans.
Sorry for the lengthy post.
love Marcel
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Dear M;
Passion is highly over rated.
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
Thank you for your kind reply. Now that one can finally go.
It's freeing to get rid of false notions.
Love M.
-
::)
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Hi Jed,
A few posts ago I told you I was not that interested in truth.
Then I went on to rant about honesty, or truthfulness as I called it, and how important that was for me.
In retrospect it showed that my notion of truth was that it was a heady, or philosophical thing, and I was and am, not very interesetd in that.
i apparently needed something more grounded and real than the abstract notion I had made of truth. To me that was honesty, or truthfulness as I called it.
After my little rant I came to see that there was nothing heady about truth because what I had called honesty was really the same process as finding out what is true.
Truth is not some afar, abstract thing, it is about me, about my life, it is what is right here, under my nose.
..as I am saying this it really feels that the process is really about, again and again, discovering the same, incredibly obvious thing, while at the same time what is discovered is always new, deeper and further.
What I have lost is another dead abstraction. One I always tried to make alive. And I always wondered how it could be that all these truth loving people were so interested in what for me was quite dead and dry. Now I know...marvellous ain't it?
There is no searching involved in truth. It is never away from me...it is not going anywhere, it is what is alive, it is what I am, right NOW.
All this pretending that's going on. The dishonesty, delusion, untruth or whatever you want to call it. i don't judge it. I don't see why I should. I'm just baffled by it. I'm baffled at all those delusions people entertain, and all those delusions I have entertained (God only knows what Delusions I still entertain). It is so incredible. I mean, once you see it you just cannot imagine how anyone can believe in what is so obviously untrue, or dead. you think: does not everyone see this? They must see this.
And you know... i think somewhere in the back of their mind they do...and then they go on and misinterpret it or soemething...I don't know. It's just mindboggling sometimes.
you see, for example, these people getting all worked up discussing something on TV they really don't believe or care about. People expressing opinions that are really not theirs (although they really think it is their opinion). People acting like their responsible parents, or teachers, or therapists or God knows what. Trying to become what they are not. And you know what the joke is...sometimes they know they are failing at it (as they should since it is not what they are) but then there are these mechanisms with which people are keeping themselves and each other asleep like self help books, friends offering support, workshops, but also, endless internal arguments, prepp talks, and so on.
And I did all of these things, and sometimes I probably still do these things to some extent, although I have reached a point where I can no longer believe all this stuff. And so there is much less need, or in many cases no need at all, for support, friends, books, workshops, and things like that.
Ok...I have ranted enough. i did not intend for this to be this long.
Love Marcel
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Hey Marcel:
Got it... but you didn't rant about gurus pretending to be gurus... and even arrogant ones like me... now that's left me flummoxed, whatever that means. Everyone plays their role on the stage of life. It's never honest because if an honest word is uttered the universe will disappear. The jig would be up.
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
i hear what you're saying. Everything is untrue, dishonest, play. A guru is just another role, or concept. It is something no one can ever be.
Truth can not speak. It (just) is. It cannot be found, nor be made visible. Visible is only that which is not true. And in this way, by seeing what is not, by shedding off untruth after untruth, what is true remains, still it is nowhere to be found, and there is nothing to see.
If truth would be uttered, if an honest word would be spoken, and if everyone would hear, then everyone woulnd see the emperor naked. And the whole game of pretending would be over.
Still is the idea that the universe would collapse if ignorance would stop true?
Probably not...although play is a lot easier if one stops being self-conscious.
Love Marcel
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Thank you for that.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
Thank you for stimulating me to go further.
Love,
Marcel
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Cattle prod time...
Love ya, Jed.
-
Moooh.
Love Marcel
-
Hi Jed,
I'm doing the death anxiety thing again.
Offcourse This statement sounds a lot more lighthearted (I don't think this is the right word but I cannot seem to come up with the correct one) than is my actual experience.
In reality there are chest pains, heart palpitations, dreams of being chased, waking up in the middle of the night thinking I'm going to die, thinking of death multiple times a day for weeks in a row, and probably a few other things.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the memory problems...seriously, this is not a bad joke. Both memory and thinking have been functioning not so well lately.
And offcourse there is also the obsessive compulsive thing.
I have no reason to assume there is actually something physical going on (although I could do with a little more sleep), or something 'mental' for that matter (I'm not exactly depressed, and although I probably classify as someone with OCD at point, The OCD is merely a side effect of an underlying problem.
You guessed it (or not): control is the problem here. Or better put. There is the realization that neither life nor death can be made to do what I want them to do.
Asking questions at this point (e.g. Who wants control, who fears) serves no other purpose than to avoid feeling this way. So I don't ask. I undergo. Sometimes I can, and sometimes I cop out.
I don't undergo, by the way to subtely get me out of it. i do it because anything else seems unreal, untruthfull.
So this is what I've been up to.
Love Marcel
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Jed.... the Great Invisible Guru is about to speak.... CRAP! He has nothing to say, except...
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
To be truthfull, honest, to not deny what is obvious and right in front of me. To not repeat or try to emulate anything some great teacher has seen.
Where does all this lead me?
It leads to simplicity. The most candid and 'goes without saying' things about truth, love, honesty, where I am, who I am. It does not lead to some realization of not being a self, it does not lead to experiencing everything as me, in short: it does not lead me to see even the tiniest fraction of what is so often and eloquently described by spiritual teachers.
Or should I say: it does not lead to what I always thought or imagined they were saying.
I'm not even interested in finding anymore anyone else says is true (or what I think they say about it).
This means searching has stopped, completely. I'm not trying to get someplace or have some experience or insight anymore (apart from some shortlived flares of trying or seeking).
But I have not stopped. Quite the contrary. the process continues, but now without the forcefulness of searching or trying, but with the flow or grace of 'what is' as my guide.
listening, experiencing and doing what is right in front of me. Going...where ever. I'm no longer driven to find truth. Instead it feels like truth is driving me.
It also feels like I'm repeating something I have said so many times before. But at the same time I know this is something completely new.
If I look out, I see within. if I look within, I am still looking out.
Is this true? I don't know, but it sure seems to describe, quite literally, what is experienced.
love,
Marcel
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The experience is only sensory data and stories... not terribly substantial.
Love ya, Jed.
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I forgot....the birds have their nests, but I will never have a place to rest my head.
Sometimes a break would be welcome though. Then again, I wouldn't want it to be any other way.
Thanx for the prodding
Love
Marcel
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;)
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Dear Jed,
It might sound like a strange thing for me to say, since I've been so easily enticed by delusion time and again, and only recently attempted to find refuge in what is not real rather than in truthfulness. But there is absolute clarity. Furthermore, there is no doubt about this clarity.
Still, It is also true that I am holding on by a thread.
I don't know how these things can both be at the same time, but they are.
I'm scared to let you go Jed. More specifically: I'm actually scared to stop. I've been working towards freedom, towards enlightenment for quite some time, and now I am scared.
I know I don't need to hear anything more than I've already heard. Don't need to do anything else. I know, I know it in my bones. But I'm scared.
I cannot bare delusion anymore, but letting go completely is making me so d**n insecure and anxious.
Love Marcel
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Hi Jed,
Most everything I want to write, upon evaluation feels like a lie. My previous post is an example of that.
There is clarity,
It is the fire burning brighter.
-
Pfffff. It seems I cannot write without feeling like a fraud anymore.
Every word is a lie. including these last words.
Af the same time clarity remains. The clarity of seeing through everything.
There is no doubt, but at the same time there is a need for certainty. The need for something solid. I'm still not used to free falling I guess.
Love,
Marcel
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You will...
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
I just wanted to write to you.
A few posts ago I was holding on by a thread. I don't seem to be holding on anymore.
There is all this 'ego' stuff that's still going on. But no grasping or constricting or identifying. And it is a pervasive thing. I no longer seem to be able or inclined to mistake myself for an identification. Today I heard some guru/teacher/whatever say that identification or grasping would still take place for her from time to time but that the 'identficator' (I'm pretty sure I'm not doing her justice by formulating it like this) was forever gone. Anyway, I Immediatly recognized that this was also the case for me. There are these last dying twitches, these residual conditioned patterns, which (can) continue for quite some time. But there is no new energy going into these patterns because the thing' feeding them (this is how I first put it into words) is gone. Some patterns have enough food reserves to last them quite some time (maybe even a lifetime), some are running on fumes and some have run out of food and have dissapeared altogether; like they never existed to begin with.
I have not discovered that I do not exist, or that I am everything, or no-thing or anything like that. How could I have discovered such a thing? It cannot be done. It isn't true.
It's just falling, falling, falling, falling... Which is a metaphor offcourse but I rather like it.
I also think this might be one of my last posts here...It's almost time to move on...
Love Marcel
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Dear M:
Happy falling...
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
:D Much obliged
Love,
Marcel
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Dear Jed,
Still not holding on, still falling.
I really don't know anything anymore. Some part of me is quite frustrated with that. Still, if the alternative of not knowing is falseness, then not knowing is preferred.
I also don't know what enlightenment is anymore. There is no non-self, universal consciousness, or anything like that. There is just an almost constant being/awareness of what is for moment to moment; like a constant meditation. There's just slight tendencies to get caught in stories, but most of the time things appear and then dissapear again without upsetting things (too much). If a story gets to be the foreground for a while, at some point, there is an awareness of that, and than the story either dissapears or becomes a figure within awareness (and sooner or later dissapears).
There is something that resembles love, like an inner, wordless, energetic, peacefull encounter with everything.
There is also just plain peace. A silence that is almost empty. This silence is like a background, but also everything appearing in this silence is silence. I don't know if I am kidding myself, I really don't. I don't know anything.
I really want to know, well part of me wants too. So this part starts searching, thinking, reading, looking for something. Then there is tension, contracting, and sooner or later the simple realization that this road has been travelled many times before and that it has not brought anything worthwhile, nor will it ever.
So, I don't know. And stay there.
Sometimes I'll catch myself wanting the realization of no-self, knowing full well that anything I want is an idea, a thought, and can therefore never be the truth one is lookinf for. Then I'll stop looking. Not because someone told me too, or because I should, but because there is just no point in looking. And then, again, not knowing, awareness, things appearring, silence, turmoil, peace. No grasping.
I really don't know if this is enlightenment. I wonder, but cannot find an answer. I know I will not find it elsewhere. I want to ask you, because at this point I can't tell what the hell I'm doing or where the hell I am. But who is it that wants to know, right? And didn't I just say answers could not be found elsewhere? So...I'll stay put in not knowing, in falling, in whatever.
Love Marcel
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Happy falling...
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
I'm enlightened, awake.
Searching has stopped. And I know in my heart it will not start again. There is nothing to search, nothing to be found.
Offcourse, for as long as I live I'll be falling. There is no endpoint.
I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.
But my time here with you has come to an end.
Goodbye,
Love and a heartfelt digital hug,
Marcel
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Enjoy the falling and know I love ya,
Jed.
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Hi Jed,
I've been reading some of your books the past few weeks.
Then I got curious about you again. So I figured I'd stop by to say hi.
By the way, I'm stil falling.
Still finding my way with it.
If I try to operate like I used to I inevitably find no energy to maintain it, and so it drops away real quick.
What remains then is Some kind of empty detachment really. And sometimes a slight disorientation. It is not a comfortable feeling, but it is what it is. More and more I find myself gently listening. Sometimes I hear something, but quite often I hear nothing. I'm still adjusting I guess.
See ya
Marcel
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Sounds like it...
Love ya, Jed.
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Addendum to previous post: Or Maybe this is the way it goes...
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Yep. It does sound like it doesn't it. Allright. See ya later.
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Dear Jed,
Just read something in 'dreamstate' I completely recognize.
It's the bit where you talk about trying, but inevitably failing, to return to the dreamstate after you discovered truth, because nothingness really is quite boring.
All in all a pretty accurate description of what I'm experiencing.
Nothingness, falling, is indeed boring. But as you said, I'm unable to find any foothold in the dream. Because it's not real and I can never again be convinced otherwise.
<Sigh> well it is where I am right now..
Just wanted to let you know.
Love,
Marcel
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Good work Marcel... now further.
Love ya, Jed.
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Will do :)
Love,
Marcel
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Hi Jed,
I've been writing and reading 'dreamstate' some more.
Seemed like the appropriate thing to do.
I didn't know you used the 'falling' metaphor that I like to use for what I'm gioing through in your book and was therefore quite pleased to read about it.
The sense of falling, you say, comes from the ripping away of ego. This I can completely relate to. So much has been ripped away already. So much it starts to be nothing (i'm not referring to an experience of nothing or anything like that.). Empty. Void. I struggle against it mostly so there is a lot of death anxiety, physical symptoms, disorientation, but despite myself I'm still falling. And offcourse because I am truth realized there is no going back (nor would I want to if given the choice, which in many ways is the strangest thing of all).
The last few days however fear has decreased dramatically ( although it has not gone completely) and something resembling trust has begun to emerge.
Guess you could say that falling minus resistance is experienced as weightlessness. How about that huh?
Love,
Marcel
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Dear Jed,
To die while alive.
This is decided for you. I guess that's what's sometimes called grace. But i don't like the term. Not because it's misleading. everything is misleading and so are all fingers pointing to the moon.
I don't like the term because at this point it isn't very helpfull.
I have seen truth or rather I have seen untruth to be, well...untrue. There is no more reference point, hence the perception of falling. I know there is also still ego stuff. Recently I discovered that is why it feels like falling instead of being weightless (falling minus resistance is weightlessness). I know, and by the way these are all metaphors, death is asking me to give myself up piece by piece. I know that's what the falling is. I know nothing can stay because everything is seen to be untrue. And I know, I can already sense it, death is gonna ask me to give up the final piece of me, to stop resisting (because that's what dying is).I also know that there is not going to be a me deciding to die or anything like that. I have found, through my own process, that these things don't get decided (ok, let me die) but are observed (ok, I will die). A small but important difference. Like Jesus in Gethsemane I can resist the process, but like Jesus in Gethsemane at one point there is going to be the observation that this thing is gonna happen regardless.
And that's where I guess I am now. And so there's panick attacks, heart palpitations, all kinds of physical, emotional and cognitive upheaval but this time more frequent and intense than before. It's kicking and screaming like I always do, at every step of the way. guess this kicking and screaming thing is seen through right till the very end. Ah well, if that's how it's going to be, that is how it's going to be (and I mean that sincerely).
By the way. I know you don't do heart, but love you do. Thank you for that.
Marcel
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Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
For almost a year now there have been no more questions.
Everything was and still is completely clear.
Although a lot of personal me stuff/ ego had dissapeared or greatly diminished since then, a lot of it has also remained with me on my freefall through nothingness. This is unexpected, and my recent return to this forum is probably an attempt to chart my present journey and whereabouts.
I have found conditioning to be admirably resilient. And although I would definitely say that I am awake I would not say that there is no more ego, nor would I expect this to be the case anywhere in the near future.
Like I wrote in my previous post, death is definitely reeping me. It's doing it piece by piece. And although death is inevitably going to win in the end, ego is determined to hang in there for as long as it possibly can.
Although things can get quite rough and uncomfortable at times I don't have a problem with things going this way. Like I said before, if that is how it's going to be, that is how it's going to be.
Just wanted to share.
Love,
Marcel
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Thanks for sharing. I suggest you love Maya/ego with everything you have. Do not resist, embrace.
Now, further.
Love ya, Jed
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Hey Jed,
Your suggestion hit the nail right on the head. Thank you for that. Further we go...
Love Marcel,
-
As the Auzies say around here, ''Good on ya''.
Cheers.
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Dear Jed
It wasn't long after your suggestion (do not resist maya, embrace) that something dawned on me.
The content of awareness (form, maya) and awareness are not two. Furthermore one cannot be without the other. No maya no form, no form no awareness.
Also, there is no demarcation to be found between maya and awareness. In other words: One cannot possibly say where maya, ego, form, ends and awareness begins. Again, maya and consciousness, form and emptiness, are not two!
Now the peculiar thing is that this was something that I had become aware of previously. In fact, I had explicitly realized this more than a year ago. But your suggestion somehow brought it back into awareness. And then it quickly deepened making me realize that what was seen before, hadn't fully sunken in yet. Despite the realization, I had made awareness 'one' and maya somehow separate from it. Which offcourse is not true.
Also surprising was the insight that my resisting ego was therefore actually an attempt to hold on to consciousness. Didn't know I was doing that...until now.
So no more falling.
And where does that leave me?
I am there where I cannot be found,
Where I do not exist,
but nonetheless am.
Cheers mate,
Marcel
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;) ;) ;) :o ::) ::) :P :P :P
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Dear Jed,
This dying to ego busisness is certainly not what I expected it to be. I thought it would be something like ego diminishing to a point where only a functional residue would remain. It's not like that at all...It's more like ego stuff still doing its thing but there is just no one identifying or intensifying anything...Ego stuff will probably diminish, because if you stop investing energy into something it will die out, like a fire without fuel.
Now this, like so many things, I realized before. I even posted about it some months ago. But the difference is that back then reducing ego was something to be desired. Like one could only be truly awake if ego had been diminished sufficiently. Didn't realize at the time that this was going on, but looking back it was.
Right now there are no more desires concerning ego. As long as my body is still alive there will be form. Ego doesn't have to go or stay (however this does not mean I am indifferent about everything, but.. ah, you know what I mean).This to me is what dying to ego truly is.
When ego/form dies completely, There will be nothing left to be conscious of, and that'll be the end of the game. It will happen sooner or later. I enjoy watching my son grow up amongst other things, so I'm hoping later, but who knows right?
Love,
Marcel
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Hi Jed,
Ego is now seen as nothing other than consiousness expressed. It is not a problem. Couldn’t care less whether it stays or goes. Offcourse in a relative, embodied sense this is not true. Pain is still painfull and given the choice I’d rather not have pain. But on a fundamental level, things are not experienced as problems anymore. They are just what they are. And nothing more gets added to that.
I used to think that the dissapation of conditioning and suffering was a goal. Now I see that it is just a side effect of truth realization. And like any side effect, it can show up, or not.
Having a family around, like I do, means having all these zen teachers around pushing every button they can find to point out where it is that I'm still attached. I can tell you that there is still a decent amount of friction/attachment present in this sense. But again, on a fundamental level, there is never any attachment. There is just continually changing form, and consciousness both creating and witnessing this movie that one could call, my life.
By the way. Seeking has stopped a long time ago. As well as questions. But there is a lot of unfolding happening, sometimes accompanied by confusion. It seems that this is what I use the forum for right now. Hope that doesn't bother you. If it does. Please say so.
Love,
Marcel
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Hi Marcel,
I just wanted to thank you for posting these things you have posted. I have seen these things, too, over the past few years, but it is very very helpful for me to see it all through another person's eyes, through another person's mind-flavor (my mind has thoughts sometimes that it thinks on its own, that can leave me going, "what the...??"--or that give me a little something "to do" for awhile, till the energy there runs out again).
So--thank you. :)
And, uh...SORRY, Jed! (EEK!)
--Misha
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Nothing to do with me. It's all You.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hello Misha and Jed,
First of all, thank you Misha for your kind words. It is both surprising and nice to hear that my posts are helpful to someone else but me. I recognize that it can be stimulating and helpful to hear other truth realized beings speak about their expierences.
And Jed, I know it's all about Me. I'm not about to forget that. I just like to bother Myself as little as possible. ;).
Love,
Marcel
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I trust boredom.
For that is what is right now.
Knowing that it is, and because of that, that it should be.
There is no notion that what is, shouldn't be.
It is, therefore it should be.
Right now there is trust.
But if there wasn't, then that is what should be.
There is no rule, there are no regulations, there is no stone to step on. There is no stone. There is no stepping.
There is just what is.
And whatever that is, it is, and that is how it should be.
Awake or asleep, calm or in panic, trusting or not.
There is no way I should be. There is no way the realized state should be. There is no way anything in the whole friggin universe should be other than how it is. What is, that is how life both in the realized state and in the unrealized state, should be.
-
For there to be boredom there must be voice in your head saying, ''This is boring''. Who hears this voice? Really, who?
Love ya, Jed.
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You should know better by now Jed.
There is not someone hearing. There is just hearing. Ha,ha😉
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Is that really your experience or a repetition of my words?
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
Fair enough.
I have looked for myself. Mire then once. And I do not experience a someone hearing. Truly.
Am I always living from this reality?No I am not. Not by a longshot. Maybe that is what you picked up.
Love,
Marcel
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No problem. Just give a little attention throughout you day.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
You question:" who is it that sees..." is still occupying my mind.
Partly because I keep wondering why you did ask it in the first place.
Did you do it to remind me of something I had already experienced? Or did you do it because you felt I had not yet found an answer to the question?. I want to know because I like to know if I'm deluding myself 'knowing' I am truth realized.
For me, there is no doubt...There is an inner knowing of the truth that is always present in the background, even when there is ( a lot of) ego stuff. I can best describe this knowing as an all pervasive, but subtle silence that is very alive and is never disturbed. For me it is obviously true that there is hearing, sensing, and all this other doing, without there being a doer, senser, etc. (Although I'm not entirely sure if I ever did ask myself who is hearing, etc. it is still obviously true for me. I don't have a sense that I'm repeating words). Like I said a few posts ago: there is no demarcation between form and consciousness, doing and doer. There is no way to tell these apart because they are not two. In other words: there is typing, reading, and so on without someone doing it.
When I first discovered/realized this a few years back I said it like this: there is only what is.
Same thing, slightly different wording.
But like I said, if I'm deluding myself, please let me know.
Love Marcel
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Hi Marcus:
Well... first off, you are deluding yourself. It's readily apparent from your words and the fact you are still posting. But, I encourage you to wrestle this to the ground because you have done much good work and in my hallucination are close to the big banana. Trust me, it's a very big one.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
Thank you for your honesty. I very much appreciate it.
I feel relieved, which is funny considering the amount of energy and fear that went into protecting this particular delusion. But this is how it always goes. There is the delusion. The delusion gains importance and energy. Then offcourse the fear of losing what has become important starts to rear its ugly head. So when the delusion is seen for what it is, there is always a freeing of energy, and because of that, relief.
I will go further. I don't think I have a choice in the matter. This has been on my mind every day for more than two years now, and apart from raising my son, and some other basis needs, it has become my sole interest).
So lets burn, burn, burn, burn, and keep at it untill I am either dead or done...or both (ha, ha)
Love,
Marcel
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Excellent plan!
Now, further.
Love ya, Jed.
-
Hi Jed,
I decided to go with your question once again: who is it that hears?
I did a few hundred words of SA before I came to the following conclusion: I'm not being honest, I'm trying to reach a conclusion instead of finding out what I really know to be true. I recognized I had reached the same conclusion a couple of times before and knew that my motivation was of; forced to choose between truth/truthfulness and (the idea of) enlightenment I chose (the idea of) enlightenment. I also knew there was nothing I could do about that. If your motivation is of, then it is of. One cannot get there by wanting to get there, and all that...
And then even this knowing was seen through as mere strategy, as an attempt to get somewhere. Because, in the past when I got really stuck to the point I had nowhere to go, suddenly there would be an opening, silence, space. Getting stuck, I knew, could act as a gateway. And so I tried that.
Then...suddenly, everything was seen to be....Hogwash...complete and utter b.s.
I knew then and there that everything I had written up to that point, everything I knew, but also everything I had adopted from any spiritual teacher or guru I had once read or heard, was something I truly had NO belief in.
I finally let in that I do not belief any of these things and felt...relieved, very relieved, and free, and much lighter.
So then I wrote the following.
I don't feel oneness, or emptiness, i dont think consciousness is the be all and end all. I really wouldn't know the first thing about what all these spiritual teachers are talking about. Truly, i don't know.
I just know I'm sick of pretense. Sick off my own pretense. Sick of maintaining some illusion about knowing or being something I know not, being something I am not.
I'm relieved not having to be who I am not. I am relieved at not being anything in particular. Of not having to be anything. Having to hold up some image.
What i am then?
Who cares, really, who cares. I feel no need to define myself, to having to be something. I do not care about being something anymore. I care about being enlightened but Part of me wishes I didn't care. You know, it's just bagage. Luggage. I don't feel like carying this around. But for now I have to, because that is what is there. And so I do it, but i'll probably be relieved to be rid of it when it goes.
Surprising. I get that it is not about getting or finding something. It is about getting rid of luggage. No luggage. How freeing, does it matter that this is not what I thought it would be. No, it is a relief....it is freedom from not having to be anything, including being enlightened.
I get that stuff about stopping the struggle to remain afloat. I get that you just have to let yourself sink. Funny enough, never thought I would say this, sinking is now what I want. I'm not even trying to hit a bottom. I just tired of struggling, tired of maintaining the false.
Difference between what burning used to be and what it is now is that where burning used to be a means to and end (burning the false to get to the truth) it is now a goal in itself (burning the false to get rid of the false, because the false is just in my way, it's weighing me down). It seems to be a subtle difference, but in actuality it is a complete gestalt switch.
So, this is it. I fear I have far exceeded the 200 word limit. I hope you don't mind. But I felt it was relevant.
Love,
And many, many thanks for everything you have done to help me get to this point. But don't worry, I will go further..and beyond.
Marcel
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Excellent...
Love ya, Jed.
-
Hi Jed
Here's some notes I wrote this afternoon.
There was worrying. There were attempts to solve the causes. Realized that solving was done out of resistance. Actually didn't want to listen to worries. Felt fatigued, stressed out, etc. realized cause was resistance. Decided to listen to worries. Worrying then dissipated.
Listening instead of resisting.
Very HA all of this...
Thought crosses my mind.
Do I actually want Truth?
How would I know?
Don't know. Not by proving anything...by listening? Ok, I'll listen...well i want truthfulness. Truth, I don't know. Don't seem to be interested in fundamental reality. Am interested in knowing myself I guess. But not in a...who are you..abstract philosophizing kind of way. Well I'm not at all interested in postulating answers to this question. I Am interested in removing bullshit and anything that is not true/truthfull. Already did a lot of that.
Is this TR stuff? Does it matter? All that matters is, what matters to me. And truthfulness matters to me. And removing bullshit also seems to be what I am doing. Don't want to struggle, keep up appearances...to tiring, that is my motivation. That is what I can say for sure. Other than that...nada.
Don't want terminology, it bothers me, even Jed terminology starts to bother me, spiritual language in general bothers me; not because of resistance, but because it is a hindrance. Spiritual teachers I'm drawn to but they are also a hindrance. They add to the weight. Than I have to get rid of that again. Ah well.
Love Marcel
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You took the words right out of my mouth... ah well.
Love ya, Jed.
(I can hear Meatloaf singing in the background)
-
I can be a bit of a drama queen, can't I? Ah well...had to get it out of my system. This was the way to do it.
Love,
Don quichotte
-
Hi Jed,
I'm doing a lot of writing at this point.
And although I feel uneasy about posting my SA stuff, I think it is better if I do. So here goes:
I am attached to my son. And this attachment is for a large part based in fear. I say this without judgement.
I see both the upside and the downside of it.
I can feel a closeness and love I have never felt before. On the other hand I can feel a constant fear of losing him, or seeing him hurt.
My son registers my fear and overprotection, I'm sure, and while he is for the most part a cheerful and open little boy, fears and worries of his own start to emerge, partly as a consequence of my fears and worries (which by the way were unknowingly handed down to me by my parents). I hate to see this develop. But as much as a part of me wants to relieve both him and myself of the burden placed on the both of us, this does not happen. It's like the alcoholic, knowing that he's damaging both himself and people around him, is still unable to quit drinking.
There are no shoulds or shouldn'ts in the universe. I've seen that. Everything is just what it is and therefore cannot be anything else. This is true. Regardless, there is a constant push and pull by wanting things to be different than they are.
This also cannot be any other way. This also is.
I'd so much like to see progress. I'd so much like you to see this progress. But this want will not and cannot lead me further. It is truthfull to say that this want is what is happening right now. But while truthfullness is helpful in removing untruth, it can also be used by Maya to deepen the delusion. Right now it is Maya who is pushing the buttons...
So there is no honesty to find here. I realize it now as I did before.
I have no choice in the matter. There is no point in resisting this, but still I am resisting.
I feel I should go on. So that is what I'll do. I'll just keep plowing through.
Love Marcel
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Those wants will get in the way... keeping you in a non-existent future.
Love ya, Jed.
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You're right Jed. Offcourse your right.
Thanks for getting me unstuck.
I was being proud, I realize. Now I feel awkward and humbled. But I am falling again.
Love Marcel
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Happy free-fall.
Love ya, Jed.
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Dear Jed,
When talking to people I constantly notice myself latching on to things (an idea, a role), trying to build a something or somebody. I realize that in these moments I'm actually witnessing the creation of ego (I've never realized it is actually built up moment by moment, which is a pretty cool thing to realize).
Offcourse I feel completely phoney when I latch on to something, and so does anything I then do or say.
Being aware of this is enough to destruct what has been built up. I then sometimes notice myself trying to be more real which obviously will not work because this is phoney too. And then this is deconstructed. A slight desorientation starts to build up and a question enters my mind. It's this rhetorical question: is it possible to be/do/speak, without being something?
Because this strikes me as the only possibility of not being phoney. The only real me that can only ever truly exist.
Love,
Marcel
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Like I have said many time... just be aware and all else will take care of itself in good time.
Love ya, Jed.
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Amen Brother😉
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;) ;) ;)
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Hi Jed,
For lack of time, this post is going to be unpolished.
First off. Last night I dreamt about losing my son. Circumstances don't matter, but when I went after him in my dream he got away faster than I could get to him. I think I then woke up, and fell asleep again in an attempt to undo what had happened in the dream. I succeeded, I found my son again, but I knew it wasn't real. That I was only kidding myself.
Second. I was listening to UG Krishnamurti talking to some men about enlightenment. I got increasingly amused by these mens' attempts to get a hold onto something and then constantly hearing Krishnamurti pulling the rug from right under their feet. Because I realized that anything I ever do to pin down reality, isn't going to be it I could now see, see as clear as day, what U.G. was doing. He was constantly showing them this. But all it lead to was these men doubling their efforts and trying to postulate or get it some more.
I offcourse could sympathize completely with these men, recognizing that what they were doing I had been doing too. But it was also a very funny thing to witness. Poor men...poor me...ha,ha.
Love Marcel
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Ahh... yes... poor, poor, poor, and perhaps the only ones with a chance of .... entering.. the Kingdom...oops, slipped out.
Love ya, Jed.
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...for only the poor in spirit shall enter the kingdom of heaven...that is to say...as long as their right hand doesn't know what their left one is doing. ; :D
Love Marcel
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;) ;) ;)
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Hi Jed,
No need to feel done anymore.
Or become enlightenend.
Why?
Because of the clarity that trying to get there is not going to get you there? Well, no...While that is true and something I've said before, it is not quite what I mean to say now.
It is more like I realize that there is no 'there' one can go to.
Why not?
All 'theres' ' that I've tried, including the really spiritual ones, are b.s.
In my experience they are, utterly phoney. They all demand some degree of mental warping and constant maintenance and are therefore not true.
This simple experience has now pertruded my being in such a way that all desire to look or seek has ceased.
So. There is no there, no done, no enlightenment. There is only the end of seeking.
And confusion, yes, there is also confusion.
Love Marcel
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;) ;) ;)
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Allright Jed,
So where has this all lead me?
I've reached nothing, discovered nothing.
I've truly come up empty handed so far.
I can't even say, like those advaita people always say, that there is no one to do or say anything, or that everything is one - well, not two...
Only thing I can answer to most questions people would ask me is: I don't know.
Questions: who are you? Answer: I don't know.
Question: What was your original face before your parents were born? Answer I don't know.
Question: what is enlightenment. Answer: I don't....second thought...maybe enlightenment just means that you've lost a lot of b.s. Which, I can tell ya, can be a great relief. But from my experience, it doesn't mean a lot more than that.
I've just come to realize that the way I am writing this down implies that I'm dissapointed in what all this truth seeking has yielded.
And I think in a way it is a great dissapointment...which is also a nice definition of enlightenment now that I think about it (enlightenment is..the great dissilussionment)
But some part of me is also relieved. Relieved of not having to put up a big show, to waste energy maintaining something that is basically untrue.
And then there is an insecure part which thinks it isn't there yet, which says that there is still a way to go...maybe it is also sheer habit producing these thoughts, I don't know. All I know is that every time I think that spiritual realization should be something else/more...I quickly realize that in order to maintain that thought I have to b.s. myself. And this is something I am no longer willing to do...
The rest is silence.
Love,
Marcel
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Hi Jed,
I wanted to post today, although these past few days have been quite uneventful.
Nothing new is coming up. Some of the old stuff is, but it al passes without leaving so much as a wrinkle really.
The tendency to search, compare, get it, surfaces from time to time, but never for long. I don't invest in it. I don't ignore it either.
Thinking has reduced. There are more moments now when there is just an alive , energetic stillness and space. I won't say this is who or what I am, or that I am nothingness. It feels phoney and unnecessary to do so. But it does feel completely at home. And so does everything appearing in this stillness. Guess you could call this oneness, but you know, why would I. It feels like stretching for something.
Falling, you could say, has become more of a gliding or hovering (just a metaphor not an experience).
There will be turbulent times. I have no doubt about that. Even now there a lots of times when stillness is not felt, when there is doubt, anger, impatience, etc.
But this is not a problem. It is all appearing and in no way worse or different than when nothing much is appearing.
I still don't know if I'm done. Guess this desire to be done means I'm not..on the other hand it could also be some lingering remnant of a habit. Something that has to die out by itself. Any thoughts on this?
Love Marcel
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Hi Marcel:
Thoughts??? Further...
Love ya, Jed
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Ha,ha, should have known.
Allright, further it is.
Love,
Marcel
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;) ;) ;)
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Dear Jed,
So I've listened and payed attention for anything that was coming up since I last wrote you.
And I found myself going back an forth between the vacuum of not knowing/stillness and the fulness of distracted thinking.
" Maya seems to abhor a vacuum", I thought, and then I put this thought aside. For while it rings true, it is basically untrue. Maya is a metaphor for anything that is not true, not a thing.
All I can say is that not knowing/falling/stillness and distracted thinking (grasping actually) alternate. And that is that.
Any other conclusion requires at least a small amount of effort and therefore cannot be true.....
So I'm afraid I have little news to tell you....
Maybe that is the point of it all...
Who knows...
Guess I'll have to wait and see.
Love Marcel
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;) ;) ;) :P :P ::) ;D
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Dear Jed,
I have just been listening to Bernadette Roberts. I did not know who she was before yesterday but through a short chain of coincidental events, with one of the chains being one of her quotes in your notebook, I happened to stumble upon her.
Although I find it hard to pinpoint what it was I got from listening to her, I think hearing what she had to say was just what I needed now. Her story was very recognizable to me and made me realize even more than I did a few posts ago, that I am no longer doing all of this truth stuff to find something, or to reach enlightenment. I'm doing this for its own sake. It is a relief to drop things, or you could also say, I am just not invested in persuing many of the things I used to pursue and not having to pursue them is a reward in itself.
I'm not trying to attain lofty goals or be who I am not, More and more I'm just being (human). And this is quite nice.
Love Marcel
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Sounds excellent.
Love ya, Jed
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Hi Jed,
I am between worlds.
Every day there is thoughts about death. Much of the time my body actually feels like it's about to die.
Still..I am here, although not quite.
Hence the 'between worlds' image.
I feel I should lay all Jed terminology aside. So no TR, SA, HA and all of that. This should be my path, only suited for me, although I still think I'm not done posting here. I value what you have to say and you have kept me on the straight and narrow on more than one occasion. I guess I can still use that.
Love Marcel
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Discard everything... well, keep your guitar... but discard all you beliefs, they are made up.. start small if you like, but just see them in truth... they are stories and meaningless, absolutely devoid of meaning until you believe them and assign some.
Love ya, Jed.
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How did you know about the guitar? ;)
The discarding of beliefs I get. As you know there has been a lot of that going on.
Now I am at a point where most everything I think or belief is seen to be flimsy, built on quicksand. This is not something that happens after thorough investigation, but something that is seen immediatly. After seeing their flimsiness, the beliefs collide like a house of cards, and sometimes all that remains is 'being'. (Not always though) But, as I said, I am still here. Between worlds.
Love Marcel
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Remember... it's all play with only one possible goal... entertainment, and even that is made up. Just another story. Bleak doesn't begin to describe it, yet full to overflowing doesn't either.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
I'll let that one sink in for a while.
Thanks!
Love Marcel
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Let it sink deep...
Love ya, Jed. :P :P :P
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Hi Jed
I no longer seem to be able to let things sink in deep.
Things fall apart too quickly.
It is as if there is this quiet energy right in the midst of me, causing most everything to fade to nothing shortly after its arising.
Ideas can be no longer believed in, thoughts are seen as insincere (yes, even including this thought).
It makes it kind of hard to think for me. Like my mind and memory are not working properly. It is also sometimes very hard to relate, be interested in, or even react to people.
Part of it is just simply fatigue I'm sure. But I know fatigue alone cannot explain the cognitive and social inconveniences I'm experiencing.
I do not suffer from all of this. I'm rather neutral, even ok, with letting this have its way with me.
Love Marcel
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Hi Marcel:
Just trust and allow.
Love ya, Jed.
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Will do.😀
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;) ;) ;)
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Hi Jed
There is no such thing as progress.
Every seeming step is just another movement in the dream. The ardent spiritual seeker, having lost his or her personal will, falling through the void, losing layer upon layer of b.s. is no closer to truth than the least spiritual, ignorant person in the world. It's all smoke and mirrors, all the way down. Infinitely and forever.
But this also...how would I know this is true, before truth is known.
I cannot know...it is just as much part of untruth...and even this I cannot know.
And the next thing.
And so on.
Ad infinitum.
And also...who is it that seemingly knows all these things?
Marcel
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Hey Jed,
A quick word from me.
A few weeks ago I realized that all my searching for clarity amounted to running in the opposite direction. At the time I thought that was pretty funny, so I had a good laugh about it.
Today I realized something similar.
When trying to find answers to questions such as: am I still here when I'm not looking? The very act of looking, or trying to find an answer, is going in the wrong direction. Like trying to find out if the light in the fridge goes out when the door is closed, by opening the door.
Allright, that's it for now.
Greetings,
Marcel
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Hi Jed,
I'm starting to see that it's not about finding answers to the questions I put to myself. It's about truthfully exploring them untill they (temporarily)subside and only being remains.
At some point a question (might even be the same one), thought or something else causing trouble will pop up again. Sometimes just asking 'who is ...(e.g. bothered by this)' is enough to just be again. Sometimes it is not, in which case the question is explored untill it subsides. I realize this might sound as if exploring quetions is a means to an end (being) but it is not. It's more about not resisting what wants to happen.
Greetings,
Marcel
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Yes, not a means to an end because infinity has no end. Keep up the good work.
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
I thank you for, intentionally or not, showing me that enlightenment is still something I'm working towards.
You've pulled the rug from under my feet again.
I cannot honestly confirm that what you're saying is true, but more importantly, I also cannot say that enlightenment is a destination/event/happening, is true.
Greetings,
Marcel
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... come to think of it. Maybe 'not knowing', being and infinity are metaphors for one and the same thing.
Not knowing and/or being have no limit I can experience or think of.
It's also not a place you can reach or get to. It is where or what one already is. Also, not knowing is without any experience of self. It's just being. Mhhhm...
Greets,
Marcel
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Cheers...
Love ya, Jed
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Hi Jed
I remember about three years ago when I had my first opening (please excuse my use of personal pronouns, it makes writing so much easier).
After some intense thinking I crumled and there was simply being. I remember it felt spacious and peacefull (being temporarily freed from ego will have that effect I guess)
I thought: as long as i don't meddle with this, it will stay.
Although i had the whole thing backwards and upside down at the time
, there was some truth to this thought.
Indeed, as long as there is no seeking, questioning, etc. There is no sense of I.
The seeking implies the seeker.
No seeking, no seeker. No doing, no doer. No me thought, no me.
The I is born, created out of nothing, every time there is doing, seeking or self-talk..
Just like the refrigerator light will go on every time I open the door to look. The added bonus of the metaphor is that the light is never seen to go out.
For some reason there has been a gestalt switch now. Ego is no longer felt to be foreground. Instead the foreground is simple being, and in it a sense of I pops up every now and then.
That's it for now. It's 3 am in the morning here in the Netherlands and I'm to tired to continue writing.
Greets Marcel
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;) ;) ;) :P
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Hi Jed
Like a phoenix rising from its ashes, self reappears from time to time and then dissapears again. I guess when some final doubt or conditioned pattern has left the system forgood, it will not reappear again.
As I have mentioned in my previous post, the tables have turned. There's no longer an I experiencing being/freedom/selflessness now and then. There is being experiencing a sense of self from time to time.
So there is no more rider and no more ox to ride. Just the constant flow, the eb and tide of experience.
Nothing has changed, everything is as it is. It has always been this way. It will always remain this way. No birth, no death. Just this. That's all.
Marcel
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::) ::) ::) :P
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Hey Jed,
I've been incubating,or maybe hibernating...who is to say.
Actually I'm still doing it.
Anyway, just wanted to say hi.
Marcel
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Back at ya, now what did you really want to say?
Love ya, Jed.
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Hi Jed,
You did some nice restructuring on the forum I see. Very good.
Now about your question.
I guess I wanted to say hi to remind myself that there is unfinished business. I do get the sense that I'm not done.
Seeking has stopped a while ago. I'm pretty much just living my life now. It does not look or seem to be the life of one who is awake. But that is how it is and I do not find a real impetus to change anything about it.
I guess that is what I call hibernating.
Me saying hi is a reminder to maybe look at some stuff again. It is like a gentle invitation.
That being said, I reckon that without the drive of seeking, looking at stuff will not be easy. I don't even have a clear idea of where to begin.
Love,
Marcel
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Too late, you already began before the thought to begin arose... ask any neuro-scientist :P :P :P :P like me... yea, like me. ??? ??? ??? ???.
Love ya, Jed.
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Yep, read about that one too. Thoughts not steering action, but rather providing a narrative.
It makes perfect sense if you think ;) about it.
Didn't know you were a neuroscientist by the way. But that too makes perfect t sense.
Anyway. I know the wheels are already set in motion. And just have to follow the thing wherever it goes. It's fine by me. I feel no resistance to it, other than that I would like to see where I'm going...still riding the ox I guess...
Love Marcel
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Hi Jed,
It is not difficult to speak truthfully when there is no want. Truth is what is left when trying has ceased.
There is a slight daze, a little disorientation. It is not uncomfortable. More resting than falling.
There is not much to say or do.
Every word is too much.
I feel unmotivated to lie, prove or achieve.
But it is all I can do here.
How many paradoxes do you want?
Every time we speak I lie.
I can only be done when I'm no longer here.
So as much as I like you, and for someone I don't know I like you a lot, I gotta leave.
But I don't want to leave.
That is the true reason I keep coming back.
Love Marcel
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Consider your ass kicked out of the nest.
Off with you now.
Love ya, Jed.