Author Topic: More from Lazarus - Consciousness Isn't Personal  (Read 1613 times)

Jed McKenna

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More from Lazarus - Consciousness Isn't Personal
« on: December 26, 2018, 11:06:55 pm »
Here's tonight's Lazy Rant.  This one wasn't written with an audience in mind, so it's not quite as user friendly. It's just me writing to try to give language to what I think Nis is saying.  It could become something more at some point.  Feel free to read or not to!

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As a Westerner and a scientist and a sort of Occam's materialist, I can look at the brain and human development objectively, and I can tell a story about how the self comes into being. From this perspective, consciousness seems to be a byproduct of a complex neural network and self-consciousness an overlay of culture into that biological matrix. Even here, however, we have to admit that some mysteries remain, and that no scientist yet really understands how consciousness springs from matter. That leads us back in to the subjective to seek additional data.  From the subjective viewpoint, I can concede that some evidence may exist in support of an explanation that our current level of material understanding is insufficient for.

For instance, when you think back, can you remember the moment you started? Most people would say no. At some point, as you reach back, memory fades or blurs into a fog, a sort of memory horizon beyond which you can't see.  For the few who would claim to remember their birth or the womb, I think they're just fantasizing. Nothing wrong with that, but even so, it would be impossible for them to remember a moment when something coalesced from nothing. Whenever that could have been, whatever was storing the memory of that moment couldn't have had the cognitive infrastructure to select which elements of the experience to record or to construct a narrative frame in which to record them. Regardless, most of us would say that there is no memory of a beginning. It is as if you have always existed.

Your inability to remember when you began may be an accurate reflection of reality.  You may not have ever begun. Your consciousness may have no beginning. If this is true, calling it "your" consciousness may be misleading.  What you are could be thought of as consciousness that has been accessed by your brain and your body at some point in your biological and cultural development. That was a temporal event. It required a level of maturity that occurred at some vaguely identifiable moment in your body's history. From there, a tangle of affects, drives, and neuro-motivational feedback loops interfaced with the familial and cultural features of your social environment to teach you a language and structure you an ego with which to navigate your world. You, as a cultural-biological being with a developmental history, managed to make contact with the non-temporal consciousness without which you could never know you were having experiences, could never have formed an ego in the first place.

So there are two levels of youness in this model. Most of us, most of the time, identify with the egoic self, attached as it is to the arbitrary accumulation of memories that distinguish you from other people who have their own random knot of memories to attach to. But that ego, the one who gives meaning to those memories, could not exist but for the matrix of consciousness that brought it to life. That consciousness, which isn't precisely yours, and which seems to have begun before your body was born, is also you. It's the other level of youness.

This consciousness is not the same as witnessing awareness. Learning to identify with the witness is a valuable step in ceasing to identify with the body, emotions, and thoughts. All these transient phenomena can be witnessed with equanimity by witnessing awareness.  But even the witness can be observed doing its thing from a higher perspective, from that of consciousness itself. Identifying with the witness expands your scope, but only to a wider personal scope. Consciousness, because it isn't "yours", isn't personal. It's a wider scope by far than that of the witness.

Consciousness isn't personal, but it is you. You're made of it. There is no you separate from it. But whatever this mysterious medium of consciousness is doesn't end at the semi-permeable edges of your personal self.  It includes that self and it includes everything that self could ever perceive or experience.  So this second, transpersonal level of youness doesn't seem like "you" at all, at least not from any viewpoint inside the egoic self. It seems like everything. But this seeming is correct. It is everything. You are everything.

Self level one is the personal self - body, memories, ego, witness, time-bound perspective, and vague boundaries distinguishing itself from other selves. Self level two is the consciousness that preceded your individuality, that permeates every aspect of your individuality, and that transcends experience, including all things.

Some people manage to successfully navigate the maze of the ego. They find the exit and emerge with a comprehensive realization that what they are is not the maze but the eternal infinite consciousness within which the finite maze arose. We variously call these folks enlightened or awakened. Many of them teach that this second level is more real than the first. What they mean is that from the perspective of the second level, the first level is just a trance, or a dream, or a cluster of relatively ignorant beliefs. Identifying with your developed adult personality is no different than identifying with the unformed blob of protoplasm you were as a newborn baby. Nether one is what "you" "really" are. Both were just bio-cultural bridges linking your time-bound body self with something you've always been and will always be, even as everything time-bound about you changes and dies.

Eternal-consciousness you isn't actually more real than ego you.  In the same sense, daytime-waking you isn't more real than sleeping-dreamtime you, and adult-developed you isn't more real than infant-undeveloped you.  Each reality makes sense on its own terms from within its own frame. But each frame is subsumed within a larger one. Larger frames can see the smaller frames within them and so can comment on the scope of the reality they're playing out. And the frame of eternal-consciousness, or so I've been told, is the ultimate frame. It's the background behind all frames. So its got the ultimate privileged perspective from which to view the finite games and dream-like realities of all little ego self frames. And from that perspective, eternal consciousness is the only game going and the only thing that matters, though, of course, it's not a thing at all.  It's the "real" you because its the only you that matters.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 02:00:36 am by Jed McKenna »

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guest1055

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2018, 04:54:00 am »
Thank you, this post was really great for contemplating the "I am" feeling. Almost felt like reading meditation at some point.

Cheers

guest1170

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2018, 06:15:37 am »
Was reading Nis and found something interesting there...

"Ultimately even the observer you are not. You are the Ultimate potentiality of which the all-embracing consciousness is the manifestation and expression"

I didnt realize this yet...

guest1293

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2018, 08:03:47 am »
Jed please keep it to the 200 word limit in the interest of time.

Ps. I just love knowing that I am "the Ultimate potentiality of which the all-embracing consciousness is the manifestation and expression." But then the wife asks me to go to work and make money so our family can have food and shelter...Ugh!! The nerve of some people ::)

guest1170

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2018, 08:21:30 am »
I used to have a job and responsabilities before realization too, but now everything is taken care of by the Universe... If the Universe gives me a job and a wife, then good... Otherwise... Ill just keep doing what I do at the moment

Yes, I know, It all sounds like crazy metaphysical talk... But It is my experience

guest1293

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2018, 09:07:10 am »
In terms of realization and out of respect for where you currently are, I'll point out that there is a major difference between what I thought was realization and the Realization. One involves mystical and enchanted stories that placed me in a position of being the ultimate thing for which all this is contained while simultaneously waiting for the universe to kindly provide (scratches head) but never mind that making any sense because it's just what sounded  better at the time.

Growing up and settling in. Who the **** wants that? Getting real? Without a head full of **** to fall back on? The truth is that the universe doesn't provide you anything but a slow death. You have an opportunity to grow up and get on with it and possibly make some improvements before that or you stay in never never land never to grow older or having to face the reality of your situation. The universe would unprovide me a wife and family too if that's how I went about my business. But I got real. Took a good HONEST look at things. It's not always as cool as envisioning my supreme enlightened being status of the days past but it's real and authentic and I do what needs to be done without hesistation because it's simple after you clear your head of all the **** and stop relying on the guru to direct your next step. But that's just my experience.

guest1170

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2018, 09:21:46 am »
No...

"My" "enlightenment" is "supreme" and "complete". It is Absolute, not relative, does not obey time, space and all that good stuff you can find in Maya's Land

The big difference between "you" and "me" is that I speak from Ultimate Reality, and you speak from conventional , relative reality

You can jump into Ultimate Reality too, nothing special in doing this... But I dont think you are ready for It now

guest1293

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2018, 09:30:09 am »
Its all good. You said it best yourself in the other thread. "No one wants enlightenment." This is true. Its about as pleasant as the day you found out there was no Santa Clause. Most people dont want Truth Realization. They want to stay in their warm and cozy worlds of make believe and I cant blame them. About the only benefit to taking this thing all the way is that you get more clear. Life becomes simpler when you accept the reality. Experience gets more streamlined because you attend to the tasks at hand rather than getting lost in your mental **** sessions. Its not always pleasant but its direct and I wouldnt have it any other way. Quite literally.

guest1293

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2018, 09:57:45 am »
Done.

guest1170

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2018, 10:16:56 am »
I'm happy you are content with the level of realization you are in... If It works for you, by all means stay there

I never "believed" in enlightenment... I literally had no choice in the matter at all. An energy forced me to do inquiry and If I didnt do It I would start suffering a LOT... So I didnt do It because I wanted to be an "enlightened man"... It was either enlightenment or suicide for me, and I didnt have the courage to do the latter

Then the enlightenment "event" fell over my head like a nuclear bomb and destroyed everything... Time, space, self, misery, memory, family, "life"... I was "born" into a completely new reality...and the statement "enlightenment is a myth" became laughble to me... Thats all

I am satisfied

guest1170

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2018, 12:17:29 pm »
Btw J( its good that you are angry and dont believe me

I was also angry with Jed and always thought he was scamming me(maybe to get money to build an harem in cabodia, or start a drug cartel, whatever...) until "the event" happened... Then It all stopped being "blah blah blah" and "guru crap" and became... Just obvious

guest1293

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2018, 01:21:17 pm »
Lol I'm far from angry. I actually really appreciate this discussion. Im just very clear on the difference between truth and make believe at this point because I was the biggest bs'er of all. After none of the hocus pocus and no self nonsense seemed to make a real and lasting difference in practical every day matters I just chose to get honest, grow up and get real. It's not easy but it's the only way to actually deal with anything rather than run and hide from it behind stories and mental concepts. In this sense non dual and advaita teachings are really dangerous because they dont help anyone to address anything but to each their own.

guest1170

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2018, 01:53:45 pm »
I agree with you... Spirituality that doesnt bring lasting changes, spirituality for the sake of entertainment is not spirituality at all... its just enterteinment

About no-self... I have "experienced" It. In the ultimate realization you dont "realize" no-self... You "become" no-self. What is "no-self"? No-self means you stop identifying with your body and start "existing" as your True Nature that is everywhere, nowhere, is perfect, never moves or changes... Etc

After enlightenment you just graduate from the school of self into the school of no-self. The big horror of "no-self" is losing everything you accumulated in the realm of "self"

guest1293

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2018, 02:35:24 pm »
They're bullshiting you. It's one thing to know that your concept of self is made up and another not to have one. The goal should be to develop a better self instead of no self. Without a sense of self at all you wouldn't know which hole you were shoveling your cheerios into.

With all respect, you have responded to each of my comments without me even saying you name directly. That is a sense of self. This isnt a bad thing. Its harmful when you attach to the stories you think define that self which they do not. But this is what I mean when I say to get to where I am it takes brutal honesty. Not many people are willing to go there because it requires courage and sometimes involves pain but the way out is through. Then you come through the other side realizing that that isnt who or what you are. This goes for the good and bad. Its all just constantly in a state of flux and flow.

guest1170

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Re: Jed Rant: More from Lazy
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2018, 03:02:42 pm »
Oh yeah, I forgot what It means to exist in Maya...

You said... "They are bullshiting you" Isnt this a story you project on me?

Wasnt It you who implied I live in cloud cuckoo land at the start of this thread?

Not mad... Just pointing out the overlooked

Btw forgive me If I do not "behave" accordingly. After enlightenment I became like a new born baby again, lost my memory, cant function properly... Well Im kinda disappointed with you because you want to create a "better self"... This is stupid because that which is perfect already IS and cannot be created... But whatever, do as you wish

But whatever... I dont say those things for the sake of arguing... I just find It something fun to do. If Jed finds my behaviour to be annoying or obnoxious then... I just stop. The truth is that I didnt even chose to be here posting in this forum... I could be jumping from an airplane, playing a piano... But no, this forum is the gift the Universe gave to me and I enjoy It... What else to do?